ANOTHER THREAD - SETTING HEATER CONTROL IS ABSURD!

[Gaël]

@Vinny@GHLUSA . I CANNOT get my heater to get passed 76 F. I even bought a new heater because I thought it was the fault of the heater. I have my setting at 78 nominal with a hysterisis at .36. It still doesn't want to heat past the 76-76.5 mark. Why? This is the second heater I've tried. My temp prob is setup as instructed and is set to heater. Before I get some anxiety, can you please help me understand why it won't heat past the 76 when it's set for 78 and all other settings are disabled that would cause it to not heat.

Hello,

And the Powerbar socket where your heater is plugged in turns off before the temperature reaches 78°F? Have you checked?
Please open a support ticket, it will be more efficient: https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/support/tickets-enquiries/

Gaël

 

[BeanAnimal]

I find the temperature control documentation very hard to understand and not entirely clear on a few points.

I think it could be revised to be more clear and contain several more examples regarding how the different features interact with the nominal value and when to expect a state change in the control.

There is a thread somewhere here where I sorted it all out with hysteresis and cooling difference... but not where I can easily search. I did not bother with alarm states, nocturnal or season calculations.

 

[Matthias Gross]

I think it couldn't be simpler.
1. you set the desired (nominal) value, e.g. 78°F
2. if desired you change the hysteresis (or leave it alone)
3. you select a an outlet which should switch when heating is required
4. if needed select another outlet which should switch when cooling is required
Done.

There is actually not much more to do. May I ask what is so complicated?

The temperatures where the heater and/or chiller are (de-)activated are calculated automatically (using the hysteresis). No need to do here anything more.

If you use the alarm - switch off control - feature then be aware that going over the threshold (in both directions, min and max!) shuts off all connected sockets.
All because in case of a malfunction it is possible that the sensor reading is completely off and it is unknown in what direction, so the least damage happens when it just deactivates everything.
If you don't want that then use the alarm function without shutting off the control.

 

[ingchr1]

I think it couldn't be simpler.
1. you set the desired (nominal) value, e.g. 78°F
2. if desired you change the hysteresis (or leave it alone)
3. you select a an outlet which should switch when heating is required
4. if needed select another outlet which should switch when cooling is required
Done.

There is actually not much more to do. May I ask what is so complicated?

The temperatures where the heater and/or chiller are (de-)activated are calculated automatically (using the hysteresis). No need to do here anything more.

If you use the alarm - switch off control - feature then be aware that going over the threshold (in both directions, min and max!) shuts off all connected sockets.
All because in case of a malfunction it is possible that the sensor reading is completely off and it is unknown in what direction, so the least damage happens when it just deactivates everything.
If you don't want that then use the alarm function without shutting off the control.

Hi Matthias,

Simple to set but I think questions arise on how each Function (Heater, Substrate Heater, Cooling, Alarm) affects operation. While there are descriptions in the manuals, I don't think most users find them clear and concise. To confirm operation, I had to run tests using a water bath. I documented my results in these threads:

Heating

I thought I had a pretty good idea on how the Heater and Substrate Heater Functions operated. So, I decided to perform another test to confirm. For this test I used a water bath and doubled my hysteresis from 0.4F to 0.8F. I performed the test three times, and the results were exactly the same each time.

Settings:

Nominal Value = 77.2F
Hysterysis = 0.8F

Decreasing Temperature

77.0F - Substrate Heater On (my primary heater)
76.8F - Heater On (my backup heater)

Increasing Temperature

77.3F - Heater Off (my backup heater)
77.7F - Substrate Heater Off (my primary heater)

Based on the data I was unsure of the Substrate Heater On point, so I performed additional tests on that function using 1.6F and 3.2F Hysterysis. The On points were 76.9F and 76.6F respectively.

From these results and the ones with my normal 0.4F hysteresis, I think it can be concluded that the heating functions of the Profilux operate as follows:

Heater Function ON = Nominal Value - (0.5)(Hysterysis)
Heater Function OFF = Upon exceeding the Nominal Value

Substrate Heater ON = Nominal Value - (~0.2)(Hysterysis)
Substrate Heater OFF = Nominal Value + (0.5)(Hysterysis)

Cooling

I just ran a test with my settings and the outlet turned on at ~79.0F then back off once it dropped below ~79.0F. I say approximate, give or take 0.1F. It was definitely off well before reaching nominal of 77.18F.

T = 77.18 + (0.83)(0.396) + 1.44

 

[Ky_acc]

@Vinny@GHLUSA @BeanAnimal @ingchr1 @Lasse

Hi all coming back to this after a few months

GHL TEMP CONTROL FUNCTION IS STILL BEYOND ABSURD

How do you use the heater control functionality with a external controller?

Why is the hysteresis concept required?

• I WANT MY SET POINT TO BE 77.5
• I WANT THE GHL TO TURN OFF THE OUTLET WHEN TEMP IS 80 OR HIGHER
• I WANT THE OUTLET TO TURN BACK ON WHEN THE TEMP IS 77.5

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THIS CANT BE ACHIEVED ?

Because of the ASININE hysteresis function if I want My outlet turned off at 80 I need to set a hysteresis’ of 3.5 - meaning the heater doesn’t turn off until it hits 74 degrees THAT IS WAY TOO BIG OF A SWING!!!



GHL - it’s 2024, almost everyone uses an external heater controller PUT SOME LOGIC IN YOUR AWFUL SOFTWARE TO MAKE THIS POSSIBLE

Why would I want to burn out my expensive GHL outlets turning on and off a heater throughout the day??????

I wanted to leave Apex behind but the more I use GHL the less confidence I have

Here is how easy what I’m trying to do
Is with an Apex. Why is GHL NEEDLESSLY COMPLICATED

 

[Gaël]

@Vinny@GHLUSA @BeanAnimal @ingchr1 @Lasse

Hi all coming back to this after a few months

GHL TEMP CONTROL FUNCTION IS STILL BEYOND ABSURD

How do you use the heater control functionality with a external controller?

Why is the hysteresis concept required?

• I WANT MY SET POINT TO BE 77.5
• I WANT THE GHL TO TURN OFF THE OUTLET WHEN TEMP IS 80 OR HIGHER
• I WANT THE OUTLET TO TURN BACK ON WHEN THE TEMP IS 77.5

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THIS CANT BE ACHIEVED ?

Because of the ASININE hysteresis function if I want My outlet turned off at 80 I need to set a hysteresis’ of 3.5 - meaning the heater doesn’t turn off until it hits 74 degrees THAT IS WAY TOO BIG OF A SWING!!!



GHL - it’s 2024, almost everyone uses an external heater controller PUT SOME LOGIC IN YOUR AWFUL SOFTWARE TO MAKE THIS POSSIBLE

Why would I want to burn out my expensive GHL outlets turning on and off a heater throughout the day??????

I wanted to leave Apex behind but the more I use GHL the less confidence I have

Here is how easy what I’m trying to do
Is with an Apex. Why is GHL NEEDLESSLY COMPLICATED

Hello,

Simply set the nominal value to 78.8°F and the hysteresis to 1.3°F.

Heating will turn on at 77.5°F and off at 80.1°F

Gaël

 

[Ky_acc]

@Gaël thanks for the response - I suppose that might work. I’ll respond back once I’m able to try that

I’m still just frustrated that simple heater control has resulted in 2 page thread with multiple people saying it’s confusing

Why does it have to be this confusing - it should be such a simple implementation

The manual needs more clarity and more examples, the above would be a good one to include

 

[Matthias Gross]

Yes, it is beyond frustrating that such as super simple setting is worth 2 pages of Q&A, it's really hard to understand what the problem is. I used to use the temperature as a simple example when I explained people at shows how easy it is to do basic settings in a ProfiLux, I never expected that this could be somewhere near complicated.

1. Set the nominal temperature.
2. Modify the hysteresis if you don't like the standard setting.
3. End of the story.
If you prefer to write code instead of doing one simple setting then I am afraid GHL might not be the right choice.

You can trust, that ProfiLux handles your heater, maybe substrate heater, and chiller correctly, if you need more confidence then read it in detail in the manual:
https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/downloads/profilux-4-programming-guide-v7-02/

See from page 40 on. There is even an explanation/example for temp. sensors.

Absolutely no need to figure it out by try and error and a water bath with different temperatures.

I hope this finally clears all open questions.

 

[Ky_acc]

Yes, it is beyond frustrating that such as super simple setting is worth 2 pages of Q&A, it's really hard to understand what the problem is. I used to use the temperature as a simple example when I explained people at shows how easy it is to do basic settings in a ProfiLux, I never expected that this could be somewhere near complicated.

1. Set the nominal temperature.
2. Modify the hysteresis if you don't like the standard setting.
3. End of the story.
If you prefer to write code instead of doing one simple setting then I am afraid GHL might not be the right choice.

You can trust, that ProfiLux handles your heater, maybe substrate heater, and chiller correctly, if you need more confidence then read it in detail in the manual:
https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/downloads/profilux-4-programming-guide-v7-02/

See from page 40 on. There is even an explanation/example for temp. sensors.

Absolutely no need to figure it out by try and error and a water bath with different temperatures.

I hope this finally clears all open questions.

@Matthias Gross No this does not. My unit simply is not functioning this way


The GHL probe TURNS OFF THE OUTLET IF MY TEMP IS ABOVE OR BELOW THE HYSTERESIS THRESHOLD

Here’s a screenshot — in what reality would it make sense for the GHL to switch off the outlet when the temp falls below the set range???

These are my screens I used a cold water container to drop the temp below my hysteresis’ range — as you can see outlet 3 for my heater is off……… what????

 

[Gaël]

@Matthias Gross No this does not. My unit simply is not functioning this way


The GHL probe TURNS OFF THE OUTLET IF MY TEMP IS ABOVE OR BELOW THE HYSTERESIS THRESHOLD

Here’s a screenshot — in what reality would it make sense for the GHL to switch off the outlet when the temp falls below the set range???

These are my screens I used a cold water container to drop the temp below my hysteresis’ range — as you can see outlet 3 for my heater is off……… what????

Hello,

The “Max. deviation” parameter should NOT be lower than the hysteresis. Because of this, your temperature sensor may very often be in alarm.
You have also activated “Deactivate control”, which means that the socket is switched off in the event of an alarm.
This explains the behavior you describe.

Gaël

 

[Ky_acc]

Thanks @Gaël turning off deactivate control seems to fix the issue.

The GHL documentation does a very poor job explaining what the deactivate control function does — I assumed that gives the outlet ability to turn off the socket, but it turns off the socket above AND below the hysteresis setting

GHL is needlessly complicated

 

[Lasse]

but it turns off the socket above AND below the hysteresis setting

No - it turns of the socket above and below the alarm settings. And you can use the same temperature probe both to run a heater and a chiller (or fan) - it means that deactivation of the controller must be working both high and low. If your heater not be able to rise the temperature at all and the low alarm goes on - it may be good that it shout down because the risk that it is damaged is huge

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Vinny@GHLUSA]

Thanks @Gaël turning off deactivate control seems to fix the issue.

The GHL documentation does a very poor job explaining what the deactivate control function does — I assumed that gives the outlet ability to turn off the socket, but it turns off the socket above AND below the hysteresis setting

GHL is needlessly complicated

The issue you were having stemmed from entering incorrect settings. Our KB article on this topic shows you how to properly program this setting with examples and all.

How to setup heater control

www.aquariumcomputer.com

The article explains how "Deactivate control" works.

In your case, your max.deviation was too small and since you had "Deactivate control" enabled, the controller activated this command and turned your heater off.

Of course, if you still need help, we would be more than happy to assist over the ticket system.

Help-Desk

 

[ingchr1]

Hello,

Simply set the nominal value to 78.8°F and the hysteresis to 1.3°F.

Heating will turn on at 77.5°F and off at 80.1°F

Gaël

That is not the operation that my testing has shown. In my numerous testes I have observed the following operation. I have several posts on it, including my last one above in this thread.

The full hysteresis is covered on the (-) side by the Heater Function and on the (+) side by the Substrate Heater Function.

Heater Function ON = Nominal Value - (0.5)(Hysterysis)
Heater Function OFF = Upon exceeding the Nominal Value

Substrate Heater ON = Nominal Value - (~0.2)(Hysterysis)
Substrate Heater OFF = Nominal Value + (0.5)(Hysterysis)

Based on my testing the setpoint you posted would yield the following operation for the Heater Function:

Heater On = 78.1/78.2F
Heater Off = 78.9F

Unless operation is different when one does not have a Substrate Heater programmed along with a Heater?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes, it is beyond frustrating that such as super simple setting is worth 2 pages of Q&A, it's really hard to understand what the problem is.

Hi Matthias - I think a few more examples that incorporate the different settings would be helpful.

I struggled with the cooling difference setting due to ambiguity in the way I read the functionality in the manual.

T = Nominal value + (Hysteresis * 0.83) + Cooling difference
Tells me when the device will turn ON but there is no mention of when the device will turn back off.

Not super important on one hand, but important if you are trying to understand the temperature swing as the cooling kicks on and off and/or the systems swings between heat and cool.

Sometimes what is "super simple" to the designer is (for various reasons) lost on the end user. There are items here and there in the documentation that could be made clear with wording and/or examples.

This is true for some aspects of temperature control, illumination settings and certainly the time and timezone settings (that to this day I can't make rhyme or reason of even if I pretend to be in an EU TZ).

Just trying to help improve the overall user experience by offering feedback.

Thanks,

-Bean

 

[Gaël]

That is not the operation that my testing has shown. In my numerous testes I have observed the following operation. I have several posts on it, including my last one above in this thread.

The full hysteresis is covered on the (-) side by the Heater Function and on the (+) side by the Substrate Heater Function.

Heater Function ON = Nominal Value - (0.5)(Hysterysis)
Heater Function OFF = Upon exceeding the Nominal Value

Substrate Heater ON = Nominal Value - (~0.2)(Hysterysis)
Substrate Heater OFF = Nominal Value + (0.5)(Hysterysis)

Based on my testing the setpoint you posted would yield the following operation for the Heater Function:

Heater On = 78.1/78.2F
Heater Off = 78.9F

Unless operation is different when one does not have a Substrate Heater programmed along with a Heater?

In all transparency, I have described the usual operation of a hysteresis-based heating control.
And since I've never had any problems with GHL heating controls and have always been satisfied with them, I didn't go into detail.

 

[Herbster]

Hi Matthias - I think a few more examples that incorporate the different settings would be helpful.

I struggled with the cooling difference setting due to ambiguity in the way I read the functionality in the manual.

T = Nominal value + (Hysteresis * 0.83) + Cooling difference
Tells me when the device will turn ON but there is no mention of when the device will turn back off.

Not super important on one hand, but important if you are trying to understand the temperature swing as the cooling kicks on and off and/or the systems swings between heat and cool.

Sometimes what is "super simple" to the designer is (for various reasons) lost on the end user. There are items here and there in the documentation that could be made clear with wording and/or examples.

This is true for some aspects of temperature control, illumination settings and certainly the time and timezone settings (that to this day I can't make rhyme or reason of even if I pretend to be in an EU TZ).

Just trying to help improve the overall user experience by offering feedback.

Thanks,

-Bean

I do agree with this. It's very easy to assume others will read instructions the way you read them.

Not wanting to dumb down the Profilux, but is there any way in settings for certain functions to have a 'simple' or 'complex' settings screen. Temp control is a perfect example where the majority of users just want to set the desired temp and the low temp where the switch channel is turned on.

It's amazing how some simple refining can make wonders to the useability of a product. Temp control is probably the most used feature within the Profilux functionality (i.e. 99.99% of people use it) and due to the complex nature of the settings screen is also probably the reason why GHL Connect is viewed as an unintuitive UI as opposed to other controller UIs.

In many cases of settings up my Profilux I have just followed instructions to get the desired outcome. I either haven't really totally understood what was going on but the goal was the desired outcome or absolutely needed instructions to get the desired outcome. A prime example of the latter was using the flow sensor to control a pump via the 1-10v interface. I get it, but it's not intuitive because the Function is called 'Constant Flow' rather than 'Flow Sensor'.

I'm sure you've heard of the sales analogy; A good salesman will sell more of a bad product than a bad salesman with a good product. I feel that the product is the controller and the salesman is the UI experience in this situation. Get the UI experience right and you'll have a good product and good salesman.

I won't elaborate on what the bad product is......

 

[BeanAnimal]

@Gaël

My ticket regarding my cooling difference questions

Ticket #8494​

Was closed without an answer or confirmation. Am I to assume my understanding of cooling difference was correct?

The user manual for Profilux appears ambiguous as to the actual function of cooling difference. It defines where cooling starts, but does not clearly indicate where cooling STOPS or what hysteresis is applied to cooling. My trial and error indicates that all "cooling difference" does is move the operating band (STOP:START) of cooling forward by a fixed ratio but leaves the hysteresis between START:STOP unchanged.

Can you confirm?
Two examples:

Nominal: 25
Hysteresis: 2
Cooling Difference: 0
Heat Start = 24
Heat Stop = 26
Cooling Start = 27.83
Cooling Stop = 26.83

Nominal: 25
Hysteresis: 2
Cooling Difference: 2
Heat Start: 24
Heat Stop: 26
Cooling Start: 29.83
Cooling Stop: 28.83

My ticket also posed a few questions and thoughts that were unanswered

In both examples "hysteresis" is set to 2 degrees. Am I understanding this correctly?

In the first example you only get within 1.83 degrees of NOMINAL from cooling, whereas heat gets you within 1 degree of nominal.

In the second example you only get within 3.83 degrees of NOMINAL from cooling, whereas heat gets you within 1 degree of nominal.

One would think that if "heating" stops at 26 degress, then the logical and proper implementation of the hysteresis band and control points would be
Heat Start: nominal - (0.5 * hysteresis)
Heat Stop: nominal + (0.5 * hysteresis)
Cooling Start: nominal + (hysteresis * 0.83) + cooling difference
Cooling Stop: nominal + (0.5 * hysteresis) 

Cooling would still guaranteed NOT overlap heating, and heating + cooling will still give you a TRUE nominal of 25 +/- 1

I can get somewhat the behavior that I want by setting up a virtual temperature sensor and using it for "cooling" and tweak settings as needed, but am still curious as to why this was not implemented in a single "heat + cool" logic.

Thanks,
-Bill

Again - not trying to rock the boat here for any other reason than helping myself and others understand, as well has offer input that (in my opinion) would improve the overall user experience and product operation.

 

[ingchr1]

Hi Matthias - I think a few more examples that incorporate the different settings would be helpful.

I struggled with the cooling difference setting due to ambiguity in the way I read the functionality in the manual.

T = Nominal value + (Hysteresis * 0.83) + Cooling difference
Tells me when the device will turn ON but there is no mention of when the device will turn back off...

Here's what my testing showed for operation of the Chiller Function. With a cooling difference set, the outlet turns Off once it goes below the On setpoint.

I just ran a test with my settings and the outlet turned on at ~79.0F then back off once it dropped below ~79.0F. I say approximate, give or take 0.1F. It was definitely off well before reaching nominal of 77.18F.

T = 77.18 + (0.83)(0.396) + 1.44

 

[ingchr1]

In all transparency, I have described the usual operation of a hysteresis-based heating control.
And since I've never had any problems with GHL heating controls and have always been satisfied with them, I didn't go into detail.

Usual operation of a hysteresis-based heating control is what one might expect and what is being put out there, but in my testing that is not how the Heater Function of the Profilux operates. It operates:

Heater Function ON = Nominal Value - (0.5)(Hysterysis)
Heater Function OFF = Upon exceeding the Nominal Value

It is this that the users want a clear and consise description of.