Are Metal Halides Making a Comeback?

[shred5]

this seems to be my experience as well. I need almost the same wattage and massive coverage with leds before i was accepting of the tech.

i went with some other leds that would have supposedly worked, but they were awful. very little growth over a year of use.

i run my blues 100% and whites 75% with my black boxes and obtain 1175 par (from the meter). i do miss the shimmer effect of halides though.

its interesting that black boxes seem to be a common success with hobbiests. although, ive heard the mars aquas are hit and miss.

Kessils have allot of shimmer, they also have a peak under 400nm for UV, that is why I chose them. Still the self shading is pretty bad.
Leds are getting better for sure since the last time I tried them.. I thought they were really close now so again I gave them another chance. I knew colors in sps would lack some but hey a little loss in color isnt to bad with all the other advantages of leds. I think frag tanks are a good place for leds because there is very little shading on frags. I really like the Kessils it just I feel like I need to double the amount of fixtures or even more. At this point there is no energy savings and the price of that amount of fixture is outrageous.

Honestly though my lps look better than ever under the Kessils it is just my sps and mainly the undersides.
We are starting to see some really nice sps aquariums with large colonies with leds but again they have allot of fixtures.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

The shelf shading phenomenon is due to the fact that the light source is a point, not a matrix or strip with significant dimensions. Halides will have the same issue, albeit possibly less pronounced, since the HID envelope is essentially a point emission source. The sun is also a point source (at least from Earth's perspective) which is why the oceans also exhibit the "shimmer" phenomenon. This also explains why black box and T5 lights have less shading but also don't exhibit shimmer.

My personal belief is that the difference in appearance comes from wattage, i.e., the Kessils just can't compete with 175W or higher fixtures since they are only a 45W fixture. People say you can get the same light output from a 45W LED fixture as you can from a 250W halide fixture, but anecdotal evidence points to that not being the case. I think the halide produces more light while the LED loses a lot of light to reflection off of the water's surface. Like I said, that's my personal belief, and I have nothing other than observation to back it up.

 

[120reefkeeper]

I'm in the belief also that all tech works.

I currently run halides and T-5's . With that being said the reason why I haven't switched over to led's is because I know myself all to well. Lol .
It seems like led's are still in the early stages to me. Someone's always coming out with the latest and greatest tech. Now mind you this technology is not cheap. With all the constant changes , upgrades etc etc... I would find myself buying and selling my lights constantly . So I've decided to stick with the tried and true halide/t-5 combo for now. That is until the market has somewhat settled and all of the great people out there has tested and proven or disproven so and so's led's work or don't work. I'm not much for being a guinea pig.

What do I believe the future holds?? I can see led's being refined a lot more and I also see combo lights being the future led/t-5 . I believe they compliment each other well and provide each other with what the other may lack.

I also believe there is a future for halide combos... Halide/t-5... Halide / led... Again this maybe a niche market now but I see it expanding a little over the next couple of years.

Why do I think that?? Well you have old school guys like me, new folks who just aren't that tech savvy for led's , and for those that feel dejected with there led experience. Some people I've talked with just never got the hang of led's or they bought some crappy ones , or they fried there corals and now they've gotten a bad taste in there mouth .

All in all its about what you want to keep, how much you want to spend , how tech savvy you are or are not.

Please take all of this with a grain of salt , this is just my take on the current situation and where I believe we are headed.

Cheers! Happy reefing!!

 

[reeferfoxx]

this seems to be my experience as well. I need almost the same wattage and massive coverage with leds before i was accepting of the tech.

i went with some other leds that would have supposedly worked, but they were awful. very little growth over a year of use.

i run my blues 100% and whites 75% with my black boxes and obtain 1175 par (from the meter). i do miss the shimmer effect of halides though.

its interesting that black boxes seem to be a common success with hobbiests. although, ive heard the mars aquas are hit and miss.

I have a mars aqua unit. The lenses they used were only 90 degree vs. 120 degree lenses. They aren't programmable and the lowest setting is 30% intensity compared to the wifi programmable variant.

 

[mcarroll]

Typical shoebox LED design is terrrible for coverage...duh, all the emitters are in one tiny space.

The universal hack is to use 120º optics (e.g. no lenses) to make up for the lack of spread on the emitters. Universally not that great of a solution....requires lots of fixtures, each with it's own hot spot, and eliminates one of the strongest features of LED technology: the ability to use lenses. Any of the better AI or Ecotech tanks you can find are the same way.

Thankfully your costs are not in line with one of those AI or Ecotech deployments!

I'm not a "best light" kinda of guy, but just to offer a contrasting example that was designed for reefing instead of shipping...

My GU10-based fixture is essentially a strip or rail-form of bulbs. The bulbs use 30º lenses, which are wicked powerful (about 3x or 4x) compared to anything you'll find on a commercial fixture. It's designed to be 12" off the water and will service 30"+ deep tanks.

For a standard 36"x12" tank footprint, I only need about 50 watts....17 watts per square foot. This gives me a peak of about 14,000 lux. Been using this particular fixture for 3-4 years now.

The same SPS grow in there as my 50,000 lux tank that's got a 160w Razor over it. (Though probably slower.)

 

[shred5]

The shelf shading phenomenon is due to the fact that the light source is a point, not a matrix or strip with significant dimensions. Halides will have the same issue, albeit possibly less pronounced, since the HID envelope is essentially a point emission source. The sun is also a point source (at least from Earth's perspective) which is why the oceans also exhibit the "shimmer" phenomenon. This also explains why black box and T5 lights have less shading but also don't exhibit shimmer.

My personal belief is that the difference in appearance comes from wattage, i.e., the Kessils just can't compete with 175W or higher fixtures since they are only a 45W fixture. People say you can get the same light output from a 45W LED fixture as you can from a 250W halide fixture, but anecdotal evidence points to that not being the case. I think the halide produces more light while the LED loses a lot of light to reflection off of the water's surface. Like I said, that's my personal belief, and I have nothing other than observation to back it up.

Yep I agree halides are also a point source but they throw light up, down, out the sides pretty much every direction except where the socket is especially mogul based lamps. This allows reflectors to bounce light at all different angles. Leds are point source but they only throw light in one direction and that is the direction the diode is pointing.
Lenses can help but only to a point, need to get that light bouncing around a reflector.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

Yep I agree halides are also a point source but they throw light up, down, out the sides pretty much every direction except where the socket is especially mogul based lamps. This allows reflectors to bounce light at all different angles. Leds are point source but they only throw light in one direction and that is the direction the diode is pointing.
Lenses can help but only to a point, need to get that light bouncing around a reflector.

Absolutely agreed!

 

[trmiv]

One thing I didn't like when I tried the Kessil was how dim the tank looked compared to my 250w halide. But at the same time due to the power I was frying my corals trying to acclimate them. The solution would have been to add more led at the lower intensity to brighten up the tank and reduce shadows. But since I'm not made of money and still had my halide setup I sold the kessil and just stuck my halide setup back on my tank.

With my 60g to 120g upgrade I had a choice to again go led but again could not justify the cost. Sure I could have gone with the black boxes but I've never been happy with the way the shimmer looks from them compared to halides or kessil. So I elected to again keep it simple and just buy another Hamilton Cayman sun to add to my existing one. It was by far the cheapest option as well for me.

I do like led for supplements. I currently have two reefbrite xho that I use for dawn /dusk and more pop. On my new tank I may pickup a couple of kessil 160s for that purpose if I can find them cheaper used.

 

[shred5]

One thing I didn't like when I tried the Kessil was how dim the tank looked compared to my 250w halide. But at the same time due to the power I was frying my corals trying to acclimate them. The solution would have been to add more led at the lower intensity to brighten up the tank and reduce shadows. But since I'm not made of money and still had my halide setup I sold the kessil and just stuck my halide setup back on my tank.

With my 60g to 120g upgrade I had a choice to again go led but again could not justify the cost. Sure I could have gone with the black boxes but I've never been happy with the way the shimmer looks from them compared to halides or kessil. So I elected to again keep it simple and just buy another Hamilton Cayman sun to add to my existing one. It was by far the cheapest option as well for me.

I do like led for supplements. I currently have two reefbrite xho that I use for dawn /dusk and more pop. On my new tank I may pickup a couple of kessil 160s for that purpose if I can find them cheaper used.

Appearance does not mean much when it comes to brightness. Halides appear to be brighter because they bounce more light around, ie off the walls, into your eyes. Leds do not waste much light and that is one of their pluses and make them efficient.. They are great for task lighting because they put the light where it needs to be, problem is that plus does not transfer well to a reef aquarium. Corals get light from all directions in the ocean. The sun lights one side in the morning, then it is above and then the other side in the evening. Plus wave action really can bend light and bounce it around. Waves can also concentrate light, hence glitter lines.

If leds were not putting out allot of light most people would be running them at 100 percent and would fry a coral like you said.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

Appearance does not mean much when it comes to brightness. Halides appear to be brighter because they bounce more light around, ie off the walls, into your eyes. Leds do not waste much light and that is one of their pluses and make them efficient.. They are great for task lighting because they put the light where it needs to be, problem is that plus does not transfer well to a reef aquarium. Corals get light from all directions in the ocean. The sun lights one side in the morning, then it is above and then the other side in the evening. Plus wave action really can bend light and bounce it around. Waves can also concentrate light, hence glitter lines.

If leds were not putting out allot of light most people would be running them at 100 percent and would fry a coral like you said.

I do run my Kessils at 100% intensity

 

[mcarroll]

The shelf shading phenomenon is due to the fact that the light source is a point, not a matrix or strip with significant dimensions.

Right! Even black boxes don't typically spread out the emitters enough though...

I think the halide produces more light while the LED loses a lot of light to reflection off of the water's surface.

You can quantify the amount of light pretty well with a meter so that the LED and halide you're looking at are comparable.

But reflection is a real issue for these lights that use wide lenses or no lenses at all to make up for the lack of spread on the emitters.....>70º angle of incidence is mostly reflected....and it's a gradient up to that percentage so definitely more than just the >70º light is being reflected. It's definitely better to have stronger lenses from this standpoint.

With my 60g to 120g upgrade I had a choice to again go led but again could not justify the cost.

DIY....leave out all the gimmicks to get the price inline with your budget and just build a light that's designed for your tank. It can be as little as $20-$30 per square foot for the whole fixture.

 

[BoneXriffic]

As a newbie to reefing(almost 2 years) but not freshwater, i opted for led as i used full spectrum leds on my planted freshwater tanks. I don't want to make a general statement for most newbies however leds are more readily available. I, like Russ, use chinese black box and will never consider MH for my tank. Mine are the 165w wifi controlled and programmable. They are super bright. I have to keep them 16 inches above water level. I never ran the intensity higher than 70% on either blue or white channel. My sps loves them. I couldn't imagine switching to MH and then jumping into R2R, 10 or so months down the road, asking whats going on with my coral? The nightmare for me would be when someone asks, how old are MH lights?

Thats not even a question lol, i change my bulbs once a year. Otherwise my old hummingbird is a monster lol. That ballast is prolly giving me cance but it sounds manly firing up

 

[trmiv]

Appearance does not mean much when it comes to brightness. Halides appear to be brighter because they bounce more light around, ie off the walls, into your eyes. Leds do not waste much light and that is one of their pluses and make them efficient.. They are great for task lighting because they put the light where it needs to be, problem is that plus does not transfer well to a reef aquarium. Corals get light from all directions in the ocean. The sun lights one side in the morning, then it is above and then the other side in the evening. Plus wave action really can bend light and bounce it around. Waves can also concentrate light, hence glitter lines.

If leds were not putting out allot of light most people would be running them at 100 percent and would fry a coral like you said.

That's true that appearance doesn't mean much as it relates to what the corals are receiving, leds are deceptively powerful. What I don't like about the tank looking dim compared to halides is aesthetically it isn't pleasing to me. One reason I keep a reef aquarium is I like the way it looks in my house. A brightly lit tank looks better to me. I remember when I switched to the kessil my wife noticed the dimness immediately when she came home and was like "ugh, what did you do to the tank?" Halides tick the boxes of being aesthetically pleasing to me, being simple and every coral I have responds well to them.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Thats not even a question ****, i change my bulbs once a year. Otherwise my old hummingbird is a monster lol. That ballast is prolly giving me cance but it sounds manly firing up

I've never changed a diode on any my LEDs. Thats something I've never thought about.

As far as shimmer goes, if I were that anal retentive about it, I could add a pendant led. The 120 deg. lenses work just fine for my application, if they didn't MH would be my next option. I'll never fork up anything more than $200 per lamp.

 

[mcarroll]

I'll never fork up anything more than $200 per lamp.

That metric is from the halide years and there's no good reason it should apply to LED's.

(If you were talking halide, then I have no comment.)

 

[reeferfoxx]

That metric is from the halide years and there's no good reason it should apply to LED's.

(If you were talking halide, then I have no comment.)

It's a general statement and doesn't apply to either LED or halide, specifically. In terms of measurement, it doesn't apply to the metric system either.

Some name brand LEDs go for outrageous prices. That said, I'm not here to bash any companies business ethics. This is all in reference to if MH is making a comeback. LED is to millennials as MH is to AARP Just kidding, but it does say something.

 

[BoneXriffic]

I would take a 1969 camaro over a 2016 =)

 

[reeferfoxx]

I would take a 1969 camaro over a 2016 =)

I like the 67's

 

[Abhishek]

Pretty interesting discussion.
I am planning for a return to saltwater after 5-6 years and was about to embark on the LED bandwagon with multiple kessil. However, I came across Reefbum's review and it got me to think.
Thanks to the ever increasing popularity of LEDs, I could find an unused Hamilton 250 W Cayman sun pendant for less than 100 buck s with ballast and reflector and only 2 month old hamilton 14 k bulb.
Immediately jumped on it ...

All I can say is the LED revolution is kind of a blessing for MH lovers as there are so many used fixtures at amazing rates available ..

Regards,
Abhsihek

 

[FL_Reefer]

I hear Ya, I run a Hamilton over my tank now and buy them when I find them cause you can get them so cheap. I have one just sitting there for a back up or for a builder tank