Avatar chalice dying before my eyes.. what the heck?

[kevgib67]

I’m with @Troylee your magnesium is way to low, you want it near 1400. Your nitrates look good but your phosphate is near or bottomed out. I would shoot for.05-.1.

 

[bitstream]

I’m with @Troylee your magnesium is way to low, you want it near 1400. Your nitrates look good but your phosphate is near or bottomed out. I would shoot for.05-.1.

Even Red Sea Coral Pro doesn’t mix that high, so you’re basically saying I have to dose?

And I can’t get my phosphate that high unless I dose phosphates. Even with extra feedings it never goes above .02.

Honestly I find it hard to believe either is “necessary” for such a tiny amount of corals considering how many folks I hear have thriving tanks and dose nothing, just use plain ol Instant Ocean.

If you look at BRS recommendations, they say mag at 1200-1400, as ocean surface level readings show mag at 1280. Me being in the 1050-1150 range really isn’t far off.

I’d really want to see data that justifies what you’re saying, in terms of certain levels will unquestionably yield a certain result. Remember that there are two chalice frags the size of quarters, a tiny frogspawn, a small 3”x2” bird’s nest, and a favia the size of a half dollar. So really not much.

I’d be more inclined to dose if I saw my levels dropping in response to coral growth. Instead they just fluctuate throughout the week as elements are used and then replenished with a water change.

Note that I already feed coral aminos and reef chili, along with an occasional target feeding for corals that will consume mysis.

And I’m also in a bind as the tank is now fallow for 2.5 months, so there’s no fish to feed.

If I was going to dose anything, it’d probably be alkalinity as I am routinely in the 7’s.

 

[Troylee]

Even Red Sea Coral Pro doesn’t mix that high, so you’re basically saying I have to dose?

And I can’t get my phosphate that high unless I dose phosphates. Even with extra feedings it never goes above .02.

Honestly I find it hard to believe either is “necessary” for such a tiny amount of corals considering how many folks I hear have thriving tanks and dose nothing, just use plain ol Instant Ocean.

If you look at BRS recommendations, they say mag at 1200-1400, as ocean surface level readings show mag at 1280. Me being in the 1050-1150 range really isn’t far off.

I’d really want to see data that justifies what you’re saying, in terms of certain levels will unquestionably yield a certain result. Remember that there are two chalice frags the size of quarters, a tiny frogspawn, a small 3”x2” bird’s nest, and a favia the size of a half dollar. So really not much.

I’d be more inclined to dose if I saw my levels dropping in response to coral growth. Instead they just fluctuate throughout the week as elements are used and then replenished with a water change.

Note that I already feed coral aminos and reef chili, along with an occasional target feeding for corals that will consume mysis.

And I’m also in a bind as the tank is now fallow for 2.5 months, so there’s no fish to feed.

If I was going to dose anything, it’d probably be alkalinity as I am routinely in the 7’s.

Idk the science man but yes higher mag equals happier LPs… it’s been documented plenty of times people keep it near 1400 for best results with hammers, torches, chalices etc.. yes I dose mine up as reef crystals is only in the 1200 range.
I mean these flesh bands don’t lie! That’s my torch and hammer.. here is growth of a sc dynamite chalice over 3 months also. I try to keep it at 1350 myself..

 

[bitstream]

FWIW, everything was happy prior to needing to medicate the tank.

I guess what I’m getting at is if I do a water change and it brings my mag to 1150, a week goes by, it drops to 1050, then a WC being an it back up… that means the corals are using 100 mag per week. So by that logic, if I dosed it up to 1400, we’d see swings between 1300 and 1400, no?

By similar logic, I’d think the same would apply to Cal and Alk, too.

My weekly logs show a clear trend like this. But at some point I’d expect if the corals keep growing that water changes would no longer be sufficient and I’d have to dose to keep levels stable.

I’m just not grokking why “keeping levels high” is an advantage. To me it’s like keeping 2 plates of food on the table even though I can only eat 1 before I’m full. Does that make sense? What am I missing here?

 

[kevgib67]

FWIW, everything was happy prior to needing to medicate the tank.

I guess what I’m getting at is if I do a water change and it brings my mag to 1150, a week goes by, it drops to 1050, then a WC being an it back up… that means the corals are using 100 mag per week. So by that logic, if I dosed it up to 1400, we’d see swings between 1300 and 1400, no?

By similar logic, I’d think the same would apply to Cal and Alk, too.

My weekly logs show a clear trend like this. But at some point I’d expect if the corals keep growing that water changes would no longer be sufficient and I’d have to dose to keep levels stable.

I’m just not grokking why “keeping levels high” is an advantage. To me it’s like keeping 2 plates of food on the table even though I can only eat 1 before I’m full. Does that make sense? What am I missing here?

As @Troylee stated there are many threads on R2R of the benefits of higher magnesium for the health and happiness of lps. My salt mixes to 1350 so yes I dose. Remember, before the corals show physical distress the process started weeks prior and have to go back weeks to identify the cause. I also use reef chili but I know a lot of people use reef roids and it increases phosphates, might be a good switch if you don’t want to dose. At the levels you’re at you holding the door open for dinos and keeping your nutrients to low for your corals. You do you, we truly want you to succeed.

 

[Troylee]

Let me ask this.. where’s your calcium and alk at? Calcium and magnesium counter each other as you can see in my trident graph.. cal raised and mag drops! I dose mag and my cal drops.. when my calcium starts raising I dose mag to drop it back inline around 450.

 

[sfin52]

One change at a time. Let's not go chasing numbers. Large water changes and carbon to remove medication. Let the tank settle and than look at upping mag. We just need to get your tank back to original status before meds

 

[bitstream]

Let me ask this.. where’s your calcium and alk at? Calcium and magnesium counter each other as you can see in my trident graph.. cal raised and mag drops! I dose mag and my cal drops.. when my calcium starts raising I dose mag to drop it back inline around 450.

Alk is 7.3 or 7.7 depending on which test you want to look at. Cal is 390.

My Alk is usually 7.7-8.3.

Cal hovers between 370-390 and stays in that range pre/post water change.

 

[Troylee]

Alk is 7.3 or 7.7 depending on which test you want to look at. Cal is 390.

My Alk is usually 7.7-8.3.

Cal hovers between 370-390 and stays in that range pre/post water change.

Not bad but a tad on the low side… is your salinity low? It seems all your levels are on the lower side but acceptable to say the least.

 

[bitstream]

One change at a time. Let's not go chasing numbers. Large water changes and carbon to remove medication. Let the tank settle and than look at upping mag. We just need to get your tank back to original status before meds

Yes, I’ve tried to avoid chasing numbers, instead just stick with a consistent routine and record the numbers each week, in concert with observing the health of the tank.

This past week was stressful for all involved, having to heavily medicate the tank, causing me to postpone water changes and avoid skimming. Then were doing a much bigger water change and re-add carbon.

The chalice and frogspawn are none too pleased.

 

[bitstream]

Not bad but a tad on the low side… is your salinity low? It seems all your levels are on the lower side but acceptable to say the least.

Other than the Alk being lower than normal this past week, the other numbers are steady and in line with what the salt mixes at. You want higher, I’d have to switch salts or start dosing.

Salinity is always between 1.0245 and 1.0255.

 

[Troylee]

How old is your tank? It just dawned on me looking at your photos that it’s pretty new! That sand looks new as does your rock..

 

[bitstream]

How old is your tank? It just dawned on me looking at your photos that it’s pretty new! That sand looks new as does your rock..

Tank is finishing its 4th month.

It has already gone through lots of diatom blooms, which finally stopped a couple weeks ago, and has had quite a bit of hair algae, which died down after all the dang medication. Now stuff is being coated in green surface algae in the last few weeks. The CUC has been busy, that’s for sure.

This week is the cleanest the sandbed has looked since the tank was initially cycled.

My problem now is that it has to run fallow for another 70 days until I can reintroduce fish… but that’s a whole other story.

 

[Troylee]

Do you know if it was actually brook or velvet? I had a brook outbreak and killed all 4 of my clowns after introducing the new pair… ugh… anyways I lost all my clowns but my tangs, mandarins, chromis, anthias etc were all fine and I dosed the ruby rally pro to my tank as you seen 6 times the recommended dose “on accident” lol because it said reef safe and all my other fish are fine… I waited 2 weeks and got 4 more new clowns and kept on trucking with zero issues… now if it was velvet that’s a different story.

 

[bitstream]

Do you know if it was actually brook or velvet? I had a brook outbreak and killed all 4 of my clowns after introducing the new pair… ugh… anyways I lost all my clowns but my tangs, mandarins, chromis, anthias etc were all fine and I dosed the ruby rally pro to my tank as you seen 6 times the recommended dose “on accident” lol because it said reef safe and all my other fish are fine… I waited 2 weeks and got 4 more new clowns and kept on trucking with zero issues… now if it was velvet that’s a different story.

I'm pretty confident it was brook. They had powdery looking stuff as well as a mucus coat building up on them, then started losing bits of their fins. In the end, both clowns had areas of bleached color, most notably on their faces, as well as a sort of "bruising" or color loss on their white bands. They died breathing very heavily, first trying to stay at the top of the tank, then stuck on the bottom where they ultimately perished.

The royal gramma died before the clowns. It was the first to start flashing like crazy. I suspected it might have been flukes that started all this as the clowns started flashing and spazzing a day or two later, followed by the change in their coat.

I did initially treat with Prazi for potential flukes, then switched to Rally as things progressed.

All that's left in the tank are some snails, amphipods, and corals -- half of which are not in good spirits.

My new problem is amphipods eating my zoas. The population is exploding now that they have no predators and they are so bold that many are out in broad daylight.

 

[bitstream]

Interestingly, the chalices have been showing more skeleton then going back to normal-ish, changing every handful of hours.

One frag is definitely more brown and faded than the other. Both barely put out feeding tentacles at night but nowhere near what I had been seeing until a couple days ago.

This is a really interesting coral behavior wise, I just wish I knew what it was unhappy about.

 

[Troylee]

Interestingly, the chalices have been showing more skeleton then going back to normal-ish, changing every handful of hours.

One frag is definitely more brown and faded than the other. Both barely put out feeding tentacles at night but nowhere near what I had been seeing until a couple days ago.

This is a really interesting coral behavior wise, I just wish I knew what it was unhappy about.

I did notice after the first three days of dosing Ruby rally pro I had a phosphate spike in my tank… that could be what your experiencing and if so they will recover just fine.

 

[bitstream]

I did notice after the first three days of dosing Ruby rally pro I had a phosphate spike in my tank… that could be what your experiencing and if so they will recover just fine.

Definitely not. Multiple phosphate tests show 0.

 

[Troylee]

Definitely not. Multiple phosphate tests show 0.

Start dosing some reef roids get them up before you open a can of worms.. besides you’re starving your corals!

 

[bitstream]

Start dosing some reef roids get them up before you open a can of worms.. besides you’re starving your corals!

I started dosing phosphates to prevent the tank from sitting at 0. Kinda necessary since it’s going to be fallow for 2 months and there’s just a handful of snails and hermits in there.

I also picked up some All For Reef and will dose lightly, observing how the corals respond.