Bacteria relationship with coral.

[Reef Monkie]

True enough. Hawaii authorities introduced mongooses to control the rat population. Just one problem, rats are nocturnal and mongooses are not, so they never meet. They also introduced a fish in hopes of boosting sports fishing but Hawaiians won't eat them - they appear very similar to a fish they consider sacred. Time will tell what will happen with probiotics being introduced to aquaria.

Although Hans Werner spoke of prebiotics (food for beneficial organisms), and you mention probiotics (the actual organisms themselves), I think you do have a valid point there. Perhaps it is more interesting for the hobby to consider if there are valid means of 'human manipulation' that do not introduce new unknowns but instead enable tanks to better mimic a natural reef from a probiotic standpoint. For example looking at current husbandry methods to see if they are getting in the way of a more natural system as seems to be shown by the articles I linked to.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Although Hans Werner spoke of prebiotics (food for beneficial organisms), and you mention probiotics (the actual organisms themselves), I think you do have a valid point there. Perhaps it is more interesting for the hobby to consider if there are valid means of 'human manipulation' that do not introduce new unknowns but instead enable tanks to better mimic a natural reef from a probiotic standpoint. For example looking at current husbandry methods to see if they are getting in the way of a more natural system as seems to be shown by the articles I linked to.

This Dana, is why I posed the original question and posted this thread. Can we learn enough about the bacteria that makes a healthy tank thrive and be able to some how manipulate them to do so.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Probiotics are used in aqua and mariculture because no one wants to eat fish or shrimps full of antibiotics. I don´t know whether and how mariculture in Florida or the Gulf of Mexico handle probiotics but for example in Chile probiotics are used in mariculture. They are also used widespread in Asian fish and shrimps culture.

Most probiotics are not specific marine bacteria but "common" or even ubiquitous bacteria like lactic acid bacteria or strains of Bacillus subtilis. Some of them will survive in the marine environment for some time or even propagate but it is not very likely that they can alter the environment. Some probiotic bacteria are isolated from the intestines of fish. These are more likely to "infect" an marine environment. Maybe time will tell whether Asian bacteria will spread in the Carribean or the Gulf of Mexico more than they already have by ship transports or the import of fish.

I think there still is a difference between the accidental introduction of bacteria by ships and the targeted introduction of foreign (maybe even genetically manipulated?) bacteria for the purpose of spreading in an environment and for altering ecosystems.

 

[Big E]

Good video on bacteria and coral relationship--

Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=3d4fa48255695a1dfa7d2ec8627d9437&action=view

I recommend the book as well

 

[Dana Riddle]

Good video on bacteria and coral relationship--

Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=3d4fa48255695a1dfa7d2ec8627d9437&action=view

I recommend the book as well

Had time to watch the first 15 minutes or so. Good grief - this videos suggests some common practices in aquarium could result in the corals' demise. Addition of organic carbon sources. Algal metabolites. I do wonder though if low water velocity in their 'coral-killing machine' helped the smothering layer of mucus to build up.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Good video on bacteria and coral relationship--

Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=3d4fa48255695a1dfa7d2ec8627d9437&action=view

I just had a look at it skipping through some slides. 25 ppm of glucose is quite a lot. A good reef aquarist with some experience with organic carbon dosing could have told them that this may cause severe problems. I think I have read an article about this experiment and I already wondered about the amount of glucose dosing. Also glucose is not the best substance for organic carbon dosing in reef tanks. Bacteria seem to produce a lot of slime with glucose dosing.

 

[Big E]

You guys are looking way too far into why I posted the video. The first part is very informative about microbes and corals.

Concerning the rest and how they relate to reef tanks are points worth discussing more about the video in another thread.

 

[Flippers4pups]

You guys are looking way too far into why I posted the video. The first part is very informative about microbes and corals.

Concerning the rest and how they relate to reef tanks are points worth discussing more about the video in another thread.

Thanks for posting the video, I'll have to watch it when I get time this evening.

 

[DeniseAndy]

Good video on bacteria and coral relationship--

Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=3d4fa48255695a1dfa7d2ec8627d9437&action=view

I recommend the book as well

I watched the whole thing and was eye opening to how much impact the microbes have on the health of coral as well as the influence of algae (which I knew) and people populations. Thanks for sharing that.

 

[Reef Monkie]

Had time to watch the first 15 minutes or so. Good grief - this videos suggests some common practices in aquarium could result in the corals' demise. Addition of organic carbon sources. Algal metabolites. I do wonder though if low water velocity in their 'coral-killing machine' helped the smothering layer of mucus to build up.

As Hans-Werner has already said, they are using quite a high concentration of glucose as well as having quite low flow. Also, isn't carbon dosing/algal metabolites (from cheato for example) feeding all the bacteria in a tank and not just those on the corals, which don't seem to be involved in reducing nitrates if the video is correct.

Someone else on this forum has 'invented' a popular DIY system that uses a reactor chamber with media and only doses carbon to the reactor, perhaps this can mitigate any negative effects of carbon dosing compared to just feeding the whole tank with carbon. One could then even consider feeding the output of refugiums through a reactor with media before returning it to the display as a means of reducing algal metabolites being introduced there?

 

[reefwiser]

Bacteria is very important to life on earth. With out bacteria life would not exist. In the aquarium we fight to maintain a balanced bacteria population. Many times the bacteria balance gets tipped in the wrong direction. Many by adding so much organic material that bacteria can process.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Also, isn't carbon dosing/algal metabolites (from cheato for example) feeding all the bacteria in a tank and not just those on the corals

I think it depends from the substance dosed. Some polymeric substances and maybe also a few monomeric/oligomeric substances seem to be beneficial for corals in reef tanks. My conclusion is that these substances are "eaten" by specific bacteria specialized in the breakdown and digestion of these polymeric substances. Finally also coral slime is a polymeric organic carbon dosing and it is meant to have an important role in the metabolism of the reef.

Also the few monomeric/oligomeric substances which show at least no adverse effects (like excessive slime buildup) may not feed mainly the general bacterial population but may be a little bit more targeted.

 

[Flippers4pups]

There's a another side topic of the use of "dry" rock and the use of "live" in starting a new tank/system. Pros and cons with each, but in the reefing community, including myself, there's been much talk of "dry" rock users having a difficult time balancing out their systems and taking very long time to do so. Of course it's directly linked to the lack of beneficial microfauna, but more importantly the lack of bacterial strains need.

I believe that this discussion of bacteria and it's relationship with corals spans into establishing a newly set up tank.

 

[Hans-Werner]

In using dry rock instead of life rock there are some other aspects too. Dry rock has no algae, sponges and other living or dead organic matter on its surface. Especially in the beginning the tank water is poor in organic substances that make the saltwater less aggressive by forming complex bonds with heavy metals. This formation of complexes with heavy metals from the salt is an important step in making the saltwater "reef friendly".

I think the organic substances introduced with life rock are the kind of polymeric organic substances that nourish the beneficial bacteria too. This is why I have some doubts that substances excreted by algae in general have adverse effects to corals. If the organic substances are not introduced with life rock they have to be formed later by corals, algae and bacteria which may be quite a slow process in the fresh and aggressive saltwater.

Also there are some alterations at the surface of dry rock that may make the start more difficult. Organic substances and nitrogen compounds are rotting and washed away while phosphate may be adsorbed and bound to the calcareous rock surface. The adsorbed and bound phosphate may nourish cyanobacteria, hair algae and other unwanted algae in the beginning.

 

[Tokyo Viking]

Spectacular video and very important information to understand for good coral husbandry

 

[Tokyo Viking]

The Coral/Algae Balance is very important to understand from the macro-global to micro-local environments.

 

[Flippers4pups]

I started this thread quite sometime ago and have learned so much since.

Here's a series of lectures from the University of the Maldives that speaks to coral, microbes, bacteria and coral diseases that I found absolutely fascinating. There's a lot here, so it takes time to go through them.













4 and 5 where particularly of interest to me for coral diseases and possible cures.