Butterfly fish in the reef Aquarium

[Shredded]

Hi all,
I did several searches and I have not found this topic, at least in the manner I intend, discussed but I do apologize if there was one I missed.

A little background on my tank:
300 gallon actual water volume, tank and sump including rock.
Predominately SPS
3 years +
Moderate fish load (Healthy Population)
Stable parameters
Coral colonies have started getting to the size that they have to be cut back

I have been in the hobby on and off for a very long time, longer than I care to think about. Years ago, (over 20) I owned a Larvatus Butterfly fish. My LFS would bring in freshly frozen rose coral (I have no idea what actual species it was) and I would put it in the tank for it to thaw and as it did, he would eat. I was not successful long term however recently, I came across the videos below (he has several) and it has really piqued my interest to do try this again. See the links below. (these are posted on YouTube, I am assuming it is OK to post these links?)




So in his tank, he has C. Tinkeri (deep water, probably minimal coral risk), C. SemiLarvatus (probable coral risk), C. Larvatus (definite coral risk) and Pygoplites diacanthus (while this is a regal angel, it's a possible coral risk)..... so you get the direction that I'm going. But in his comments on his videos that span a couple of years, the fish look healthy and so do his coral colonies. Naturally his inclusion of these fish in a reef tank brought many questions and I was intrigued by the answers. We all know that there are huge schools of butterfly fish on very healthy coral reefs. The reefs show no damage from the presence of these large schools. His response to the question was, healthy coral colonies can easily support the butterfly fish without any damage and actually support healthy coral growth. And actually if you think about it, that's kind of obvious, so, of course you couldn't put 30 Corallivores in a 300 gallon tank and expect your tank to thrive... but what about one? One little, 3 inch, C. Larvatus in a tank where the coral is starting to overgrow? Maybe a C. Tinkeri that may nip a little? Or the P. diacanthus that may eat zoas (spoiler alert, I received my tiny 2" regal last week and OMG i wish he'd eat a Zoa as i have thousands of them, so far healthy and grazing on the rocks). Of course, you have to size the number of fish, the max size, the type, on your tank size and the quality of your coral colonies. But why not? Why not have the best of both worlds, have your beautiful reef and those spectacular fish that everyone told you, nope, you can't have it. I mean, they serve a purpose on the reef, maybe they can actually increase the health of your reef.... if done correctly. Discuss?

 

[Lowell Lemon]

It seems possible that the balance between growth and consumption could yield the results you are looking for. The balace would have to tip toward the coral over the fish to make sure you always have an abundance of correct food supply. Is this not the same requirement for keeping Harleqine Shrimp? You must provide enough starfish to allow for food without destroying the food supply.

It would seem to be a challenge to balance the competing needs but that is the art of keeping captive reefs is it not?

 

[DeniseAndy]

I think it is possible with the correct size of tank, growth of corals, husbandry, etc. Just not the average reef keepers best option.
This goes for a lot of fish and species on inverts.

 

[DeniseAndy]

Just noticed your location. I have lots of relatives in Alaska. My cousin has won the Yukon Challenge (I think this is the one - it is a 1300mi race up there, just happened recently) the last two years running. Brett Nelson.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@Shredded
Are you near Bevercreek, Yukon per chance?

 

[ca1ore]

I thought about this a while back .... how big would a tank have to be and how many coral colonies to support an obligate coralivore with sustainable damage? I never tried it, though I do keep a lemon peel angel. He’s pretty good, but every now and then will decide that a coral colony is delicious. Within a few weeks he can destroy a volleyball sized colony. Fortunately this seems to sate him for a good long while. All to say I don’t believe my 450 is big enough to support even a single obligate coralivore. I think I’d need something in the 2,000 gallon range.

 

[Shredded]

Just noticed your location. I have lots of relatives in Alaska. My cousin has won the Yukon Challenge (I think this is the one - it is a 1300mi race up there, just happened recently) the last two years running. Brett Nelson.

@Shredded
Are you near Bevercreek, Yukon per chance?

Hi guys,
This is a little embarrassing. I'm in Yukon... Oklahoma. lol Yea, who knew there was one of those. Probably why i lose packages! Sorry!
Jeff

 

[Shredded]

I thought about this a while back .... how big would a tank have to be and how many coral colonies to support an obligate coralivore with sustainable damage? I never tried it, though I do keep a lemon peel angel. He’s pretty good, but every now and then will decide that a coral colony is delicious. Within a few weeks he can destroy a volleyball sized colony. Fortunately this seems to sate him for a good long while. All to say I don’t believe my 450 is big enough to support even a single obligate coralivore. I think I’d need something in the 2,000 gallon range.

Really? OK that is interesting. Did you get a chance to look at the videos that I attached above? Now, what is interesting in one of them he is hand feeding the Larvatus and it also was eating clam on the half shell... So, maybe eventually, if the coral is available at first than after a time it may very well start to take other foods as well as shown. Perhaps because it is not a constant daily coral only diet after fully acclimating to captivity and living with and seeing its tank mates feeding?

 

[AtulR]

The tank in the video is one of the most impressive I've seen, especially considering the fish collection he has.. Apparently that Regal is over 15 years old!

I'm guessing you're right about the fact that the Larvatus is probably accustomed to the prepared foods that he feeds. That particular aquarium doesn't seem big enough to keep an obligate corralivore alive, although it is extremely mature, which is probably why this particular aquarist has had the success he's had. The pair of Macropharyngodon choati is no joke either!

I hope that eventually we can figure out a way to keep fish like the Larvatus Butterfly in captivity... But for now, it seems like the success rates are abysmal, and probably a fish best left in the ocean.

 

[Angel_Anthias lover]

Idk if youve seen this, quite informative, may answer some questions.

 

[ca1ore]

Really? OK that is interesting. Did you get a chance to look at the videos that I attached above? Now, what is interesting in one of them he is hand feeding the Larvatus and it also was eating clam on the half shell... So, maybe eventually, if the coral is available at first than after a time it may very well start to take other foods as well as shown. Perhaps because it is not a constant daily coral only diet after fully acclimating to captivity and living with and seeing its tank mates feeding?

There are some interesting things in those videos .... pair of choati wrasses and a true sea fan. Both really hard to find .... reefer collected perhaps. Anyhow, weaning a fish onto foods it otherwise wouldn’t eat (or prefer) rarely prevents returning to that which thousands/millions of years of evolution have prescribed.

 

[Angel_Anthias lover]

Idk if youre aware but the larvatus butterfly in the video died sadly(i asked him a while ago on his instagram), all be it the owner says it was his own fault, so it may still be alive today in theory, or maybe not

I think he gets his stuff from dejong marine life as the owner seems to be European and has a dejong gramma for a 2 or 3 years.

 

[Tanne]

The tank in the video's is mine, thanks for bringing up this topic, I do highly appreciate to share experiences, we can all learn from each other!

My tank was TOTM on another forum some time ago. In the TOTM-topic, I've shared some of my thoughts and experiences on this matter: https://totm.ultimatereef.net/2017_december/ As mentioned, the larvatus has died. This happened due to a series of events, partially due to my own fault and partially due to bad luck. Two key events: I work with two thermometers to increase safety. Both were off by 2 degrees. As I tried to lower the tank temperature to accommodate some fish that prefer cooler waters, I accidentally made the tank way to cold, thus reducing the effectiveness of the immune system of the fish. When I introduced a new fish, I have experienced a very sad explosion of parasites. When that was under control, I have experienced a power cut -and no, the backup system did not do what it should have done. This all happened over a year ago. Afterwards, I have taken precautions that will avoid any of these events to happen again. At this moment, the tank is flourishing again and I am slowly restocking the tank. Of course, butterflyfish and angelfish are not missing, I would not want to miss these.

Apart from the fact that most BF fish are harder to keep (mainly due to them being more susceptible to parasites and bad water quality) then many more common fish, of course their diet comes in mind. Keeping BF fish in a reef tank is definitely NOT a hit-or-miss, chances on succes or failure can be quite well predicted.

Some key factors:

• the natural diet of the fish. Not al BF fish share the same diet. They range from very specialised on certain corals (e.g. C. trifascialis prefers to eat a few types of Acropora only) to nearly completely reefsafe, such as C. tinkeri (and C. burgessi, C mitratus, C. declivis and probably C. flavocoronatus). Many other species such as C. auriga and C. falcula fall somewhere in between.
• the combination of the fish with corals. In general, sps corals will be fine, unless of course combined with fish specialised in feeding on them, such as C. trifasciatus or other corallivores. LPS: meaty species such as Lobophyllia, Cynarina, Trachyphyllia will be eaten. Many other species such as Goniopora, Alveopora, Euphyllia will often be ignored. I would highly recommend to be very picky on the specimen(s) to be introduced if you would like to try keeping BF fish in a reef tank.
• care taken of the fish. Well fed satisfied fish in good health will be more well behaved than hungry, stressed or bored fish. While many species will adapt to more 'common' frozen foods such as Mysis, a trick I have found by accident is oysters. Yes, those expensive ones. I have discovered that many fish that are hard to feed will DEVOUR fresh oyster meat. Of course, it might take a while before they recognise this as food. In an attempt to make this expensive technique easier and cheaper, I discovered frozen oysters in Asian grocery stores. I must say, these are great!

The video of the tank by Matt Pedersen is really helpful, Matt and I also share experiences every now and then.

 

[Shredded]

The tank in the video's is mine, thanks for bringing up this topic, I do highly appreciate to share experiences, we can all learn from each other!

My tank was TOTM on another forum some time ago. In the TOTM-topic, I've shared some of my thoughts and experiences on this matter: https://totm.ultimatereef.net/2017_december/ As mentioned, the larvatus has died. This happened due to a series of events, partially due to my own fault and partially due to bad luck. Two key events: I work with two thermometers to increase safety. Both were off by 2 degrees. As I tried to lower the tank temperature to accommodate some fish that prefer cooler waters, I accidentally made the tank way to cold, thus reducing the effectiveness of the immune system of the fish. When I introduced a new fish, I have experienced a very sad explosion of parasites. When that was under control, I have experienced a power cut -and no, the backup system did not do what it should have done. This all happened over a year ago. Afterwards, I have taken precautions that will avoid any of these events to happen again. At this moment, the tank is flourishing again and I am slowly restocking the tank. Of course, butterflyfish and angelfish are not missing, I would not want to miss these.

Apart from the fact that most BF fish are harder to keep (mainly due to them being more susceptible to parasites and bad water quality) then many more common fish, of course their diet comes in mind. Keeping BF fish in a reef tank is definitely NOT a hit-or-miss, chances on succes or failure can be quite well predicted.

Some key factors:

• the natural diet of the fish. Not al BF fish share the same diet. They range from very specialised on certain corals (e.g. C. trifascialis prefers to eat a few types of Acropora only) to nearly completely reefsafe, such as C. tinkeri (and C. burgessi, C mitratus, C. declivis and probably C. flavocoronatus). Many other species such as C. auriga and C. falcula fall somewhere in between.
• the combination of the fish with corals. In general, sps corals will be fine, unless of course combined with fish specialised in feeding on them, such as C. trifasciatus or other corallivores. LPS: meaty species such as Lobophyllia, Cynarina, Trachyphyllia will be eaten. Many other species such as Goniopora, Alveopora, Euphyllia will often be ignored. I would highly recommend to be very picky on the specimen(s) to be introduced if you would like to try keeping BF fish in a reef tank.
• care taken of the fish. Well fed satisfied fish in good health will be more well behaved than hungry, stressed or bored fish. While many species will adapt to more 'common' frozen foods such as Mysis, a trick I have found by accident is oysters. Yes, those expensive ones. I have discovered that many fish that are hard to feed will DEVOUR fresh oyster meat. Of course, it might take a while before they recognise this as food. In an attempt to make this expensive technique easier and cheaper, I discovered frozen oysters in Asian grocery stores. I must say, these are great!

The video of the tank by Matt Pedersen is really helpful, Matt and I also share experiences every now and then.

Wow, what timing! Thanks for sharing! I really didn't expect you to see this.
So... I have not stopped thinking about this. I keep watching my baby Regal Angel and praying that she will snack a little on my zoas but she prefers to graze on the rocks. Today was her first day to come out and swim with the big fish, no issues. So, in reference to what you were just saying, and the natural diet of the fish.... 2 years ago, I bought a colony of Pocillopora Damicornis. Worst move I ever made. Some people have no issues... I now have more then one hundred colonies of various sizes and that's not counting those in caves. I have kept them at bay but i am losing this battle. I have a couple of techniques, a 5 watt laser and Aptasia X. I have a long syringe, 36", that i used to cover the colony and leave the pumps off for about 30 mins. This is very effective. The laser will reach those that i cannot with the syringe, but, leave one polyp and that colony will recover in a couple of weeks. This is a very aggressive, fast growing, inexpensive, coral, that when it runs into your 250.00, large, Walt Disney, or your 500.00, large, Pink lemonade colony, promptly stings it to death with its sweepers and takes over. So, as my thoughts branched out on this idea, I did some research (since I am furloughed and not allowed to work) and as it turns out, there is a butterflyfish that prefers or maybe even requires Pocillopora Damicornis for it's diet and that fish, mentioned above, is C. trifasciatus, the Melon Butterflyfish. See attached pic. As of this afternoon, I believe I have found one or two small ones. I would like to have a pair to see them swimming together in the tank. I have a call in but didn't hear back yet. I am really excited that not only will I have this beautiful fish in my tank, but he will also go to war for me against these dreaded Pocillopora! My next fish, that will have to wait until I go back to work, is the roaps butterflyfish, Chaetodon tinkeri. Not much of a risk but a beautiful fish.
Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Shredded]

There are some interesting things in those videos .... pair of choati wrasses and a true sea fan. Both really hard to find .... reefer collected perhaps. Anyhow, weaning a fish onto foods it otherwise wouldn’t eat (or prefer) rarely prevents returning to that which thousands/millions of years of evolution have prescribed.

True, I wouldn't expect it to ignore it's preferred food, but more to supplement it's coral diet once it learned to recognize other items as food, thus not decimating all of the coral in the tank. But since I have never done this, I am just kind of making this up as I go along. ;Playful

 

[Shredded]

@Tanne - Could you expand on how you prepared and fed the fresh oysters? What was successful for you. I have a fresh seafood market down the street. I would like to try it. Maybe the Regal would jump on that.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Only three I trust from experience in a reef setting: Pyramid, Copperband and Kleini

 

[Shredded]

Only three I trust from experience in a reef setting: Pyramid, Copperband and Kleini

Understood, and for most reefers, this would be the objective but, I am getting out of that box, what I am looking for here is NOT, to trust them to not eat coral, but to trust that they will eat coral.

 

[Shredded]

I found this tonight...

Awesome Fish Spotlight: The Ornate Butterflyfish
GREG COLLINSKE AUG 2, 2017

A closing quote from this article referring to keeping the Ornate Butterflyfish, (Chaetodon ornatissimus) ......

"In reality keeping an Ornate Butterflyfish would require a massive reef aquarium with endless coral growth for this butterflyfish to casually graze upon. An aquarium overtaken and overgrown with Pocillopora species could make keeping these fish a possibility for an ambitious aquarist one day. "

Sounds like my situation...

 

[vetteguy53081]

Understood, and for most reefers, this would be the objective but, I am getting out of that box, what I am looking for here is NOT, to trust them to not eat coral, but to trust that they will eat coral.

well. . . then we are talking Auritus, Pakistani, racoon, heniocus and lemon