Can i dive to get corals?

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

I would never spend $2000 on a frag mainly because I’d be terrified I’d kill it and be out the money lol. That being said there are tons of gorgeous corals available in the $10-$50 range. You are in no way limited because you can’t or won’t pay that price. And for the ones who can and are willing, it’s their money to spend so why should we care? Be happy with what you can have and that we get to be part of this incredible hobby at all instead of angry that there are a small handful of pieces out of range. It’s the same with any hobby. I would love to buy a $2000 camera lens for example but I can’t so I’m happy with the $200 lens that I can.

 

[Fishfinder]

Ok look..... all the people saying "expensive coral prices need to be lower because I can't afford that piece" really need to stop. You can't afford it. Ok that's fine. Sellers don't need to lower their prices because of that. I've never walked into a Lamborghini dealership and said "you need to lower the price on this car because most people can't afford it. It's not fair". Nope I can't afford it so I drive a used dodge. I can't afford $1K frags either so I buy $25-$50 frags. No complaining. Let's not start thinking that everyone deserves the same thing just because..... countries have tried that

 

[code4]

Soakem, thank you, I enjoyed the learning experience. Awesome.

 

[mitch91175]

A long time ago I worked at a place called Pet Food Warehouse. They were bought out by Petco to give you an idea of what the store was. The market up on marine items was 2.75 times the wholesale price. Example is $10 cost would retail for $27.50. The trade has really changed since the early 90's so that might not be the best example.

This is really not a great example. Try 10X markup on most coral. I know for a fact that the pricing on coral is outrageous (just as everyone else). I personally have transhipped before. Do you get the super colors and the crazy names that we see, no you do not. The list is more like Green Acropora, Pink Acropora, Super Color Acro, etc, etc.

Those same $7 colonies are put under certain light and I think that helps color them up and then they get some crazy name. I honestly couldn't tell you the name of everything that I buy. I keep a list just so I do not buy the same thing numerous times (even then one vendor has one name and another vendor has a different name for the SAME coral). Yes there is a lot involved in propagating the coral for sale and everyone has to make a living so more power to them. Once a frag gets over $100 for me I usually pass on it. Coral are too finicky no matter how great your parameters are in your tank and can just die after looking very healthy (for no explained reason). I wish coral could actually talk to you and say, "Hey stupid, this light is too much for me or I am hungry. How about moving me to the flow over there, I think I'll like it better".

I honestly wish that there were more people in the hobby that shared more (not just knowledge, but also frags). It would allow more people to share the lineage of that frag and if someone lost their frag and the coral could be fragged again, you pay if backwards and forwards. If I do get to a point to be able to sell frags, I will do it more to supplement my spending and not try to price gouge someone that wants the frag. Maybe make enough to buy some salt or other necessities.

The high prices are what really drives people from the hobby, specially if someone experiences a tank crash (I know it did for me). I just couldn't stomach at the time starting all over again. Now I have been back for 5 years and the pricing is much higher than it was back then. I lost easily over $5K retail in fish alone (I say retail because I never pay retail for a fish, I got a hookup with a longtime friend).

Long story short, it is fine to price stuff the way you want to do so. Some people will buy it and others won't. I personally wait for sales to stock up on some of the more expensive coral (and hope and pray that it will survive to grow into a colony). At one point I had even thought about transhipping again just to get some stuff that I want, but to do that I have to buy stuff that I do not want and my local forum wouldn't allow me to offer other members the opportunity to buy coral at dirt cheap prices (too political so I do not frequent the forum anymore). I also noticed that the policy is very selective in whom is ALLOWED to do certain things while someone else is either banned or gets a slap on the hand.

At the end of it all, MAKE MONEY MAKE MONEY MAKE MONEY. That is everyones right to do so.

 

[mitch91175]

Ok look..... all the people saying "expensive coral prices need to be lower because I can't afford that piece" really need to stop. You can't afford it. Ok that's fine. Sellers don't need to lower their prices because of that. I've never walked into a Lamborghini dealership and said "you need to lower the price on this car because most people can't afford it. It's not fair". Nope I can't afford it so I drive a used dodge. I can't afford $1K frags either so I buy $25-$50 frags. No complaining. Let's not start thinking that everyone deserves the same thing just because..... countries have tried that

It's called Socialism!

 

[mitch91175]

For example, the Grandis palys usually go for at least $40 a polyp simply because it takes about a year to grow a polyp (So I'm told).

A year, I don't know about that. I bought one from my LFS a few weeks ago and I can already see bumps where it looks like more are about to grow. Growth on a lot of this stuff depends on your husbandry. My LFS is moving to another city and he is selling his stuff off (lots of zoanthids/palys). Getting some great deals and I asked him why he is selling them for those prices and he said, "I grow them like weeds". Some things will be slower growers, but in the right hands, that same coral can grow faster for them than in the hands of a novice.

Something that I think would help is that everyone that sells coral have something similar to what LiveAquaria has, classifications for experience level. At least then when someone pays for that expensive coral they know that upfront and can make a better decision. Some buy a coral just because they want to say that they have it to their friends and not really know how to properly take care of it (no problem with that just saying). Also listing what light that coral has grown under and water parameters would help as well. Some do this while others do not. Yes we should research about the coral before purchase and hope that helps us to have success with that particular coral.

 

[mike werner]

You have nothing to be sorry for, you didn't offend me at all. I didn't mean to mislead, I'm not actually a high roller. Me "selling" is usually taking a couple dozen frags to my LFS where they will give me 10-20 a frag. I don't really do SPS, but I am aware that growth rate is a big factor in SPS prices. The reason some coral seem to hold their value is because they are such slow growers, there are always way more people looking for some than available frags. For example, the Grandis palys usually go for at least $40 a polyp simply because it takes about a year to grow a polyp (So I'm told).





Whoa whoa whoa, stop right there. I wouldn't say I deserve credit nor would I say my accomplishments are amazing. I'm a simple hobbist, and I'd say we stand on the shoulders of giants, who figured out most of the hard stuff and shared their knowledge - I'd really just say I can follow directions...

And to answer you, no I have actually stopped paying it forward with corals - All too often they just died. I have provided the dirty water and live rock for two other people to get in the hobby though. Donations are great and all, don't get me wrong - But I see the price increases as signs that the hobby is healthy and growing. If prices were dropping, I would have the feeling that the hobby is dying and people are getting out. I guess I've just never seen a LFS operator/vendor getting rich and driving a new benz... If they really are getting that much for the frag, I'm willing to bet that profit margin feels needed to them to cover the losses on other things.

wow, I pay it forward on a regular basis.my local aquarium club will vouch for that.it's a great feeling helping out another reefers, especially ones who could not afford that frag or coral otherwise.if not for the generosity of others I would not have half of those $100 a frag pieces that I do and got from someone else paying it forward.karma works in the reefing hobby too.i'm a believer!

 

[cilyjr]

If anyone actually knew the profit made on the livestock from the big vendors, I assure you, you would be shocked and prolly upset by the huge margins they make.

This I doubt. I'm using a box of sps as im less sure of the pricing for lps.that will change significantly both initial cost and survivability.

A box of indo corals cost between 800 and 1k wholesale. With that you'll get 3 to 5 (depending on size) colonies. For this example we will assume 4. Each can be cut into 6 what I'd call frags, most call mini colonies now, multibranching pieces about 2 inches overall
Of the 4 there's a reasonable chance 1 won't survive being cut in the wild, then going to a holding facility, then transportation. That's a $250 loss the wholesaler eats.

Then of the 3, 2 of the corals are nothing special. Meaning of those 12 "frags" one needs 41 bucks for a 25 dollar coral. There is a chance 1 or 2 frag dies. So let's assume the wholesaler needs to get 50 bucks for a 20 dollar coral just to break even on that piece.
We will guess that 0 die and we make $25 x 12 for these. That's $300 (-$700 from original investment)

Maybe 1 colony is something a cut above the others. But because of the loss from the other 3 and im not talking anything spectatular, just a decent piece. We now need about $120 per frag to break even. Realistically we will get about $60 per piece but this is a piece worth keeping 1 frag to "grow out". 5x 60 $300 (from the -$700 we are now at -$400 profit from the box)

From time to time there is 1 amazing piece maybe 1 out of 20 boxes. This is the grail of importing wild coral. From this 1 coral the wwc, cherry corals, Jason foxes of the world need to making a living off of. From the -$400ish per last 10 to 15 boxes profit this coral needs to make some money. But not at first. You can sell maybe 2 pieces right away for an ungodly amount of money to the few people who have to have it "first", and you'll need a good rep as a retailer just to find them. The rest needs to be grown out, which has its own costs.

I'm well aware there some worst case scenarios here and when buying many boxes the average goes more in favor of the wholesaler but I wouldn't guess more than 5% to 10%.

I'm sure that eventually with growing out and regular sales of the staple coral (the sunset montis of the world) one can do alright. Assuming we set up in a business friendly, warm climate state. I'm not seeing coral importer as the fast track to making millions though. These guys are doing it because they love the hobby, or maybe they're addicted to gambling!

 

[cracker]

Great video ! There is a "lot" of money involved with all that !

 

[Ahbaloch]

Thank for everyone replying,

I understand that there are ton of acros that cost $25, but I deff want some cool color full acros but they are over $2-300 for a small piece.

But my question was.

Lets take at home wrecker, is jaon fox the only person that released it?

 

[jda]

You can get boxes of wild acros. The more you order, the nicer stuff that they will send you. You will need a large system with lots of light, test twice-daily for parameters since the colonies go from doing nothing while acclimating to all of a sudden using up all of your bicarbonate and calcium. You will need to deal with the losses. Then, deal with the ones that are just blah - you usually have to give these away. In the end, you might have a nice colony or two that you can name and get a nice penny for. In the end, you would probably be better off paying the $ for a home wrecker and saving the trouble.

I still will buy a wild box of 30 acros from Australia or Fiji every once in a while. If 2 end up being nice, then I am happy. I lose about 8-10, have 15 that are kinda common and the rest are keepers, but some are similar to what it in the hobby now.

Only the trendy acros are $200-300... there are very few legit, no-trick-lighting acros that cost this much that look good in any tank, anywhere regardless of your Royal Blue LED count. These tried-and-true survive the fads because everybody is into them whereas the trendy crowd is a smaller subset.

Wild corals are not for the faint of heart. Trendy corals burn bright for a short period of time, then flutter out...some more than others. Classics go up in value and are always desirable.

 

[Greybeard]

Join a local reef club. Get to know others in the hobby. I have been given, or have given to others, hundreds of coral frags, even fair sized colonies. Yeah, there are folks around that don't believe in giving frags away... that's fine, it's their stuff, but folks that are trying to sell xenia, common mushrooms, green or brown paly or zoanthids... well, they're not selling them to me. Among my friends in the hobby, we give each other frags in case of a wipeout... we can go get a frag of that favorite coral back, if we loose our colony. I've got some real nice stuff this way, and given very nice stuff away for the same reason.

On the thousand dollar frags? They can keep those, too. There are literally thousands of frags available at local or regional reefing events for $20 or less. Some nice looking stuff. I believe the most expensive coral I've ever bought was a green wall hammer, I think it was $50. Pretty fair sized, too. I may one day spend a little more on a nice cynarina... maybe.

Clams? Yeah, I'll spend a hundred bucks on a nice clam. Fish? About the same.

You can build an absolutely gorgeous reef out of softies, leathers, zoas, mushrooms... for very little.

For those that are spending big bucks on corals? Keep right on doing so. IF that coral ends up holding it's amazing color, and IF the coral ends up taking to captivity well, growing at a decent rate... it'll be down in my price range soon enough. Look at some of the Cyphastrea and Chalice corals that were big bucks a few years ago. Many are common, and cheap, these days. If it doesn't hold it's color, or doesn't grow at a decent rate... well... why would I want it anyway?

 

[Mark Gray]

I really think buy what you like if it's to much don't buy it. I remember at least 35 years ago I bought a juvenile emperor angel fish. No oone had them then it cost my 400 dollars and I think another 300 for a plane ticket, it was in transit for at least 6 days maybe 7, arrived heathy and became an adult.

 

[dmunyon8]

The real question is why are you looking at frags that cost $2K? There are plenty of beautiful coral out there for cheap. Typically the only reason a coral is expensive is because it’s a new color or variation and only a few suppliers have it. There are some awesome coral that have been on the market for years that have proven they can not only be raised but thrive in a Reef Aquarium.
Also, If you see something you really like, but it’s a little out of your price range, just ask someone in the store if they can cut you a deal or give you a discount. They are in the business of selling coral and fish and are typically more than happy to cut you a deal so they can move product and make more room for more coral. I rarely pay full price on a coral.
Another thing to look into is frag packs and online auctions! Just do your research and don’t overpay!

 

[Dragon52]

I have a LFS near me that doesn't discount/guarantee anything Ever so i drive to another store over 70 miles from me 4/5 times a year because he does. I end up saving money even with the gas included. That is also why I buy from LA/ Vivid Aquariums & other places. I do plan on going to some frag shows including RAP Orlando next year & will probably buy some stuff. Even if I could afford a $2K piece of Coral I wouldn't buy it, to much of a chance of it dying, I'd much rather spend that kind of money on my HO scale Trains or RC stuff. Lol

 

[gig 'em]

I'm no expert on the matter, but from the research I've done in the past and talking with an exporter in Bali, there's a TON of paperwork to fill out to export corals from a country and import them into the US. You have permits and fees from the country of origin and the destination country with CITES permits on top. It takes a lot of experience and knowledge to do this successfully, and there are delays on top of all of it.

As others have mentioned, tons of corals come into the country and only so many are knock-your-socks-off stunners. Thus they demand higher prices. The market determines what a coral will cost with the majority being affordable and the few cream of the crops fetching high prices.

You probably wouldn't want to collect your own corals anyway, all the head ache and effort... plus if you consider that thousands of corals come in from hundreds of reefs across the world and only the nicest ones make the list of the premium "high end" corals. Others have done all the hard work, you're just paying for that service in the end. That's how I see it at least

 

[BradB]

I've made this rant before. $2000 corals cost $2000 because people are willing to spend that much money, and want something other people don't have. It is the same as rare coins, dog breeds, art, etc. It is their money and their right, and I think in the long run it helps our hobby.

But I have a frag tank full of "Japanese" toadstools that I remember everyone drooling over at $200 a tiny button sized piece 10 years ago, along with some colorful montipora, bright green birdnest and lots of other really pretty stuff I enjoy having in my display that I am happy to get $5-$10 a piece for. Surf and turf Acro, one of the most colorful SPS that I originally paid $60 for never sells out anymore at $20. My personal favorite, ALT silver bullet (almost as blue as Oregon tort, much cooler growth form), I am trying to find buyers at $20 or given away free so I can buy more if something happens to my tank. None of it sells well, because everyone is huddled around Jason Fox, not buying, but just complaining they don't have $2000. My goal is to not throw any coral out, pay for the containers I give away, and if I am lucky, earn a few $ towards future purchases.

As for collecting your own, laws vary so you have to do your research. I've never done it, but I believe Mike Paletta and a few other hobbyists have. I think it would be really cool to have a coral I personally collected. But you really are fooling yourself if you think you save money by flying to Southeast Asia instead of a trip to your LFS.

 

[Skibum]

I'll chime in here. Once you get past the equipment, additives and maintenance time, you're on to livestock prices. I'll list mine out:

Maricultured Acro Colony: $80 LFS
Poker Star Monti: $40 LFS
Closed Brain Colonies: $60
Closed Brain Colony: $80
Porites w/Bisma Worms: $80
Kenya Tree = $10
Seriatopora mini-colony = $40

Total = $390

Free Coral frags from a Buddy:

Acro Slimer = Free
Stylo Pistillata = Free
Monti Cap = Free
Encrusting Orange Monti w/purple p0lyps = Free
Acro Tenuis = Free
Monti Spongodes = Free
Monti Digitata = Free
Numerous other Acro nubs = Free

Total Value? Probably somewhere in the several hundred dollar range if I bought at LFS or Online. The point I'm trying to make, is that if you have a "named" coral tank, you're going to have a "named" price tank. This hobby is expensive, but it doesn't need to be stupid expensive. All of us can get off the web, go meet people, and exchange frags. It's easy, you make new friends, and you pay it forward at some point. I live in Summit County Colorado, I'm one of approximately TWO reefers that are into reef keeping. In fact, reefer means something completely different to most people here, but I digress ;-). I'm sure most of you live in cities where there are numerous hobbyists willing to exchange frags, or donate their over growth, or charge a small fraction of what it would cost online or LFS.

If you're patient, and you want to grow out a beautiful reef, you can do so w/o buying super expensive and rare corals. Besides, I grown out reef tank w/o named corals looks just as beautiful as one with named corals, and nobody knows the difference.

JM2C

-Tom

 

[User1]

You can collect, sure. Just place a call before you do so you know what the rules are. In some cases you may not get an answer but redirected to someone who can. During our drought in California I wanted to collect NSW around Monterey when I went diving. Since I knew some of the areas I was diving in are reserves and/or protected I had to place a few calls then wait to get an answer. I did in about 2 weeks or so and I was set. While on the phone I asked about grabbing any empty shells, etc. Just know the rules and you will be fine.

The rest of the thread I'm saying out of.

 

[Sabellafella]

I thought this was a pretty cool video. From Reef to aquarium.

Thanks for Sharing!