Could water changes become a thing of the past? i.e. tank chemistry

[Belgian Anthias]

A system has a certain content of nutrients. What is measured is what is not used at the moment of measuring in the present situation. We do a water change of 50%. The nutrients present in the removed water are exported, The nutrients in the tank water may be diluted by half. What does it change to the present situation?

 

[ReeferSamster]

I'm bored. Wife and kid are away at a friends house. Lets party:

Because organisms have a limited live span and will release their content.

I don't understand the relation to their limited life span and our 'water change' topic. Please specify. I feel like I don't understand your point because I'm probably misreading things.

Because a water change will cause a sudden change in the availability of nutrients and life conditions, organisms adapted to the present conditions may response by releasing all they have stored or die.

In IMHO unless you do a water change with complete different parameters or shock the temperature, no organisms of any worth should be affected by a simple water change. No one is going to release their load or die in a water change. If it did cause this problem that you wrote, from your quote: "sudden change in the availability of nutrients and life conditions, organisms adapted to the present conditions may ... die."
Then boy. You did the water change wrong!
Its quite hard to do water changes wrong, if you keep the same parameters.
No organisms should die in a water change. Until after you throw them out the window onto concrete, Oh, and also except for the floating aiptasia that you happened to have scraped off to get sucked out the siphon. Get them out of here!

No organism is going to "release their content" unless its a horny snail who sensed a slight distrubance in the force (water change) and spreads his "stuff" all over your tank.

Skimmers removes stuff but only some organic compounds and does this very selective,

Skimmers are not selective in what organic compounds they strip. They strip whatever they can, when they hoard them on their little hoarder bubbles. Even innocent inorganic compounds, minding their own business get sucked out in a protein skimmer non-selectively. The degree depends on the "wetness" of your skimmate. Protein skimmers are non-selective export devices.

I'll give you an example. A skimmer can remove ANYTHING in the water column, hydrophilic or not. Do a wet skimmate. Anything in that collection cup is out the garbage. (This means "REMOVING") Whether it was an ideal element meant to die a gruesome death- "death by skimmer!" as a compound meant for a skimmer to remove or not; fundamentally its just a water pump in a plastic tube with a lot of bubbles trying to attract certain ones, pushing the water up the cone, but non-selectively and quite randomly, everything in that water will crawl up the neck and into the cup, if they lost the skimmer-lottery. A skimmer is non-selective.

Good water changes remove what is in the changed water, nothing else, Most nutrients have accumulated and are stored in sediments and will be released back in the water when fresh water is added,

Hmm. We should experiment. and do another water change once the stored accumulations have been released to the water column due to lesser concentration. If that is a real concern. Just as a test. Less concentration in the water so concentration from rock are leeched out? o Do another water change. Do it again. These issues happen while you might be curing rock or are cooking liverock. But in a balanced reeftank, this should not be a problem. The concentration levels of said nutrients are not at toxicity levels. Just do a water change. It will help dilute and remove a portion of the nutrients. Just do another one if you are concerned about freed nutrients from liverock depending on the situation (curing live rock etc)

But anyway, the primary goal of a water change is to remove as much stuff we reefers classify as "bad stuff", as much as possible to dilute the limited volume of water we have. This is just another way of saying "remove". It doesn't mean remove 100%.

If one has 1ppm of a certain nutrient after a 50% water change still 0.5 ppm will be present, the nutrient content is diluted, not removed. Most probably the level will increase again due to leaking out of the sediments to restore equalization.The effect of having 0.5 ppm or 1ppm on the growth rate is nihil, there is still enough to support growth. If it is about life bacteria ( TOC) it will take less a day for the population to reach the same population,

Waterchanges help diluting what should not be there in the first place.

I'm not following this one. What should have not been there in the first place? Everything is there and they should be there through arbitrary import from you, or created by regular biological/ chemical process in a reeftank, which led them to be there.

EIther manually added by the reefer intentionally, as a byproduct of processing 'digestion' by the consumers, or as a byproduct of 'toxins', or any other processes that occur in a reef tank. Everything thats in a reef tank is meant to be there. It is our job to get certains ones outta there, and pour in some more that should be there.

I'm being totally honest. I don't think you are making much sense, or I am totally misreading what you are writing.
But I just want to get the facts straight.

PS: I have 30 minutes before the wifey and kid come home.

 

[ReeferSamster]

We do a water change of 50%. The nutrients present in the removed water are exported, The nutrients in the tank water may be diluted by half. What does it change to the present situation?

You just removed bad stuff by 50%. You saved your reef tank and the amphipods are making a parade in your honor.
The point of a water change is to dilute toxins below toxicity levels. Mission accomplished.

Can you explain your statements and address my answers:

Because organisms have a limited live span and will release their content.

I addressed this above. Please answer. What does a limited life span have to do with water changes?

Because a water change will cause a sudden change in the availability of nutrients and life conditions, organisms adapted to the present conditions may response by releasing all they have stored or die.

Why will organisms die or release what they stored when doing a water change? Please see my answer above.

Skimmers removes stuff but only some organic compounds and does this very selective,

No. Skimmers are nonselective exporting devices. Please my answer in the post above

Waterchanges help diluting what should not be there in the first place.

What should not have been there in the first place?

Help me. Help you. I'm stuck at home. Wife just texted me. On the way home. Quick!
. I need you to make sense and answer my answers before my kid jumps on my lap ruining our little tete a tete. With all due respect, I don't feel like you are making any sense in those specific quotes, so please address my replies 2 posts above.

 

[Ardeus]

3 years ago, when I upgraded my tank from 100 to 200 gallons, I decided to stop doing water changes.

Nutrients are kept in check mostly through a balance between fish and corals and I feed the fish 7 times/day.

I'm in this for the long run and I didn't want to commit to too many maintenance tasks and nowadays the tank practically runs itself... with the help of 15 dosing pumps. (only 5 of them for trace elements).

Nonfilter socks, just a skimmer and a 10 gallon refugium with chaeto.

In a tank with a heavy coral load, you can't rely on water changes to maintain trace elements.

How many trace elements are present in artifical salts anyway?

I don't know the importance of each element for each coral, so I assume they all are important.

I have yet to find a better solution than the Red Sea colors program, because it includes 31 elements. It's just 4 bottles and it allows some tweaking. A couple of ICP tests per year have allowed me to keep everything stable.

Neither Triton nor Moonshiners provide as many trace elements and they require much more work.

I managed to get 5 litre bottles of the colors program so the cost was really low. I got them 3 years ago and they will last for at least 1 more year.

 

[BrianAnthony]

Only way I'd not change water would be if I was able to do ICP quality tests in my living room everyday and I had all additives sitting on shelves in said living room.

Not a rabbit hole I'd want to go down. And a chemist, I am not.

 

[Screwgunner]

Let's say you run your tank for 6 months no water change. All of a sudden something happens to your tank . You are told to do a 50% water change. You started with I.O. at 11 dkh alkalinity 6 months has gone by now your alk. Has dropped to 8 dkh. So you do your 50% water change now you have just went from 8 dkh to 9.5 dkh that right there will kill sps coral . If you do small water changes you do not alter the peramiters that much.

 

[Reefahholic]

I don’t do water changes unless indicated or feel it’s needed.

Not every reefer has a style that can get them by w/o doing water changes though. Newer reefers struggle more to keep nutrients in check. So if a water change is needed then do it.

If you know how to handle the Chemistry then I don’t think water changes are needed as long has there’s no pollutants in the system. However, there are some pollutants that do not show up on ICP (take the TMP salt for example). If you see the tank going south or corals are loosing polyp extension then it’s time to do a water change/s.

 

[BrianAnthony]

I don’t do water changes unless indicated or feel it’s needed.

Not every reefer has a style that can get them by w/o doing water changes though. Newer reefers struggle more to keep nutrients in check. So if a water change is needed then do it.

If you know how to handle the Chemistry then I don’t think water changes are needed as long has there’s no pollutants in the system. However, there are some pollutants that do not show up on ICP (take the TMP salt for example). If you see the tank going south or corals are loosing polyp extension then it’s time to do a water change/s.

In my 12g, I don't have the luxury of the wait and see approach.

 

[Reefahholic]

Let's say you run your tank for 6 months no water change. All of a sudden something happens to your tank . You are told to do a 50% water change. You started with I.O. at 11 dkh alkalinity 6 months has gone by now your alk. Has dropped to 8 dkh. So you do your 50% water change now you have just went from 8 dkh to 9.5 dkh that right there will kill sps coral . If you do small water changes you do not alter the peramiters that much.

That’s why you adjust your ALK prior to doing the WC. BTW…some Acro’s will shrug off a 1.5 dKH swing like it’s nothing. Others will go up in smoke. It really just depends on the tank, the overall chemistry, and the coral.

 

[Reefahholic]

In my 12g, I don't have the luxury of the wait and see approach.

Why not.

 

[BrianAnthony]

Why not.

Things go south quickly

 

[GARRIGA]

Let's say you run your tank for 6 months no water change. All of a sudden something happens to your tank . You are told to do a 50% water change. You started with I.O. at 11 dkh alkalinity 6 months has gone by now your alk. Has dropped to 8 dkh. So you do your 50% water change now you have just went from 8 dkh to 9.5 dkh that right there will kill sps coral . If you do small water changes you do not alter the peramiters that much.

Not if you adjust the new water to proper parameters.

 

[ReeferSamster]

Not if you adjust the new water to proper parameters.

If something immediately happens, as an emergency requiring a 50% water change to save as much as possible, testing and redosing is going to be one of the last things you will prioritize. Its an emergency!

There are different schools in reefing regarding frequency of water changes. However, I guarantee at one point or another, whether it is weekly, monthly, or on a case by case basis, an emergency, you will at some point in your reefing career, on any given tank, will need to do a water change. Reef tanks are not static systems.

 

[GARRIGA]

If something immediately happens, as an emergency requiring a 50% water change to save as much as possible, testing and redosing is going to be one of the last things you will prioritize. Its an emergency!

There are different schools in reefing regarding frequency of water changes. However, I guarantee at one point or another, whether it is weekly, monthly, or on a case by case basis, an emergency, you will at some point in your reefing career, on any given tank, will need to do a water change. Reef tanks are not static systems.

Assume DT dkh at 8. New water at 10. Changing 50% will raise dkh by 1. Well within the realm of not stressing life that exists. Plus it take seconds to add the appropriate amount of Acid Buffer to lower the dkh and as you are stirring the water with a pump just have another aerating the surface to gas off the CO2 created from converting carbonates or one massive air stone. Point is aerating the surface to gas off and come to an equilibrium.

You still need to mix the salt otherwise you had premix on hand which should have already been at proper parameters.

Four things I've always know to be stress triggers. Temp, salinity, PH and alkalinity. All four can be quickly adjusted regardless of the emergency. Although, all four have levels of cushion. Such as being able to go up in temp by four degrees or alkalinity by 1 dkh or PH by 0.5 or salinity by 2.5 ppm. These are what I go by and might be more restrictive than needed but old habits die hard until new knowledge gained. Doubt any of these would cause loss of life. Panic is the last one should do when faced with an unknown. Often the outcome not as expected and nothing good ever happens fast in this hobby.

 

[Screwgunner]

I understand completely i have been reefing for 20 years but your newbies on here have no clue what is going on. Hence, the explane this and that. They are killing there fish and coral and don't have a clue why they are dieing.
Now your last couple paragraphs cootos that one hit the nail on the head. Keep it stable and you will no dought have a nice tank .

 

[fish farmer]

Let's say you run your tank for 6 months no water change. All of a sudden something happens to your tank . You are told to do a 50% water change. You started with I.O. at 11 dkh alkalinity 6 months has gone by now your alk. Has dropped to 8 dkh. So you do your 50% water change now you have just went from 8 dkh to 9.5 dkh that right there will kill sps coral . If you do small water changes you do not alter the peramiters that much.

So you are saying that in that 6 months time when your Alk and probably Ca and Mg are dropping, the reefer isn't adding things like two part/kalk to maintain the 11 dkh in that time period?

I would think the lack of the big three whether through WC or dosing would be a killer as well in that time period.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I'm bored. Wife and kid are away at a friends house. Lets party:


I don't understand the relation to their limited life span and our 'water change' topic. Please specify. I feel like I don't understand your point because I'm probably misreading things.

A water change just removes what is in the water and does not change what bad management has caused. if a system produces nitrate, it will also produce nitrate after the waterchange, if the nitrogen and carbon cycles are out of balance, probably the reason why a waterchange is needed, it still will be the same after the water change, nothing has changed. Most Orgainsms store nutrients.if they can, more as they need for grow if available. If the organimn is not exported, all the nutrients will cycle in the tank, more as needed.
Bacteria grow at a logaritmic rate, most have a clock build in and will die at thee same logaritmic rate, otherwise a big layer of bacteria would cover the earth with a big layer within a week. if the bacteria has stored a nutrient reserve it will also release that reserve when dying off. More nutrients as needed are made available.

In IMHO unless you do a water change with complete different parameters or shock the temperature, no organisms of any worth should be affected by a simple water change. No one is going to release their load or die in a water change. If it did cause this problem that you wrote, from your quote: "sudden change in the availability of nutrients and life conditions, organisms adapted to the present conditions may ... die."

A sudden increase of the pH due to a water change will increase the required carrying capacity (the ability to reduce all ammonia produced within a certain time frame) . Organisms are very sensitve to ammonia and it will influence the competition for nutrients and growth rates. Water changes turn the system even more autotrophic ( removal of organic carbon) , causing more nitrate production. ( nitrate present in the tank will be diluted but more nitrate will be produced) Life shifts to the autotrophic side of the balance.

Growth means more cells are produced as cells die off. if not cells die.

Then boy. You did the water change wrong!
Its quite hard to do water changes wrong, if you keep the same parameters.

Why a waterchange? Not for keeping the same parameters. Why a water change is needed?

No organisms should die in a water change. Until after you throw them out the window onto concrete, Oh, and also except for the floating aiptasia that you happened to have scraped off to get sucked out the siphon. Get them out of here!

No organism is going to "release their content" unless its a horny snail who sensed a slight distrubance in the force (water change) and spreads his "stuff" all over your tank.

Most bioload in the system are not snails. it is about the bioload which keeps the snail alive and healthy or causes to snail to release its" stuff", as corals may release its "stuff" when their holobiont becomes out of balance ( due to sudden changes in the water conditions) Therefor it is better to perform small changes but more often ; 30 daily changes of 1% will have about the same result compared to 1 change of 30% each month, if it comes to maintain a certain nutrient level by dilution. But it does not change a thing to the present situation, why a water change is needed.

Skimmers are not selective in what organic compounds they strip. They strip whatever they can, when they hoard them on their little hoarder bubbles. Even innocent inorganic compounds, minding their own business get sucked out in a protein skimmer non-selectively. The degree depends on the "wetness" of your skimmate. Protein skimmers are non-selective export devices.

Is a skimmer selective?
How a skimmer works;? if it is about DOC it removes apolar and hydrophobic organic compound, leaving +- 65% of organics behind. The best skimmer removes +- 35% of TOC and DOC, The only protein exported is in live organisms , are exported with TOC , and caried out on the foam. This way a skimmer promotes the accumulation of organisms specialized breaking down polar and hydrophilic compounds and influences the evolution of reducers.
The nitrogen content of feed depends of the protein content of the feed. Most nitrogen present in protein is released as ammonia ( +- 85%) and is not removed by a skimmer, creating a nutrient unbalance. Because a skimmer removes organics but not the nitrogen the systems produces more nitrite and nitrate, the system becomes more autotrophic. ref: MB eiwitafschuimer.

I'll give you an example. A skimmer can remove ANYTHING in the water column, hydrophilic or not. Do a wet skimmate. Anything in that collection cup is out the garbage. (This means "REMOVING") Whether it was an ideal element meant to die a gruesome death- "death by skimmer!" as a compound meant for a skimmer to remove or not; fundamentally its just a water pump in a plastic tube with a lot of bubbles trying to attract certain ones, pushing the water up the cone, but non-selectively and quite randomly, everything in that water will crawl up the neck and into the cup, if they lost the skimmer-lottery. A skimmer is non-selective.

If it was that simple!
Using a device one should know what it is able to , and what will be the side effects of using it.
Something can be removed from the water, replaced from one place to an other. A nutrient can be removed from water by growth, but the nutrient is not exported from the system because it can be reused.

But anyway, the primary goal of a water change is to remove as much stuff we reefers classify as "bad stuff", as much as possible to dilute the limited volume of water we have. This is just another way of saying "remove". It doesn't mean remove 100%.

The "bad stuff" contains organic carbon and nutrients needed to prevent nitrate production. Why organic compounds are considered to be "BAD stuff". How comes the stuff is building up in the water and is not reminerelized to its basic ellements and reused to clear the water? I suppose the " BADD STUFF" includes safely stored usable nitrogen in the form of Nitrate, How BAD is nitrate?

Removing "BAD stuff" with a skimmer or any other thing used to remove DOC will promote the production of nitrate and nitrate build up, which is a good thing considering NO3-N was once NH3-N;

Why produced nitrate is not used up in a well lit marine aquarium?

I'm not following this one. What should have not been there in the first place? Everything is there and they should be there through arbitrary import from you, or created by regular biological/ chemical process in a reeftank, which led them to be there.

In a system using growth to clear the water, all the stuff will not accumulate, this if the feed is balanced. So, waterchanges to dilute the nutrient reserve should not be part of basic management! Nitrogen management starts with the protein content feed, responsible for the balace between heterotrophs and autotrophs, and nitrate production. It will not help basic nutrient management if devices remove constantly organic carbon once part of the balanced food.

I'm being totally honest. I don't think you are making much sense, or I am totally misreading what you are writing.
But I just want to get the facts straight.

I am sorry if it does not work your way, but it is how things work, and I try to keep it this way. Good basic management is about respecting the basics of growth. If one does not respect the basics of growth, growth will not be able to clear the water of all nutrients and "BAD STUFF" may accumulate.


I was once told using a skimmer will prevent nitrate accumulation. How?


Why spent money on water changes to correct what can by prevented?
and a skimmer plays a very important role, but not a very positive one.

In the seventies most used a BIO and a skimmer, and water changes only when considered needed. Later some have advised to remove the bio because it was supposed to be responsible for the accumulation of nitrate. It did not change much exempt the accumulation of nitrate took longer due to the reduced carrying capacity. Knowing a bio can not be responsible, a bio respects the rules of growth, I saw and found no reason to follow that advice, it turned out that the advice was not based on thorough research, it was simply copied by authors without mentioning any solid references. There is no reason for not using a bio for basic management and prevent nutrient accumulation. Then it must be the other device I used, a devise which does not respect the basics of growth, the skimmer. We do know why

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The only protein exported is in live organisms , are exported with TOC , and caried out on the foam.

Not sure where you are getting these ideas. Many proteins readily absorb at air/water interfaces and foam fractionation of proteins has been known and used for decades:

Purification of proteins using foam fractionation - PubMed

Purification is an important step in the production of pharmaceuticals from recombinant proteins. The characteristics of industrial-scale purification schemes, such as conventional chromatography, have a significant impact on the cost of production. Foam fractionation, a novel separation...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A sudden increase of the pH due to a water change will increase the required carrying capacity (the ability to reduce all ammonia produced within a certain time frame) . Organisms are very sensitve to ammonia and it will influence the competition for nutrients and growth rates. Water changes turn the system even more autotrophic ( removal of organic carbon) , causing more nitrate production. ( nitrate present in the tank will be diluted but more nitrate will be produced) Life shifts to the autotrophic side of the balance.

Growth means more cells are produced as cells die off. if not cells die.

Why do you think a pH increase has that effect on carrying capacity?

I do not see how a water change causes more nitrate production. I simply do not believe your assertions that come without explanation or evidence.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was once told using a skimmer will prevent nitrate accumulation. How?

I already explained this. You keep posing it as if it is some new conundrum. It isn't.