Cycling Questions- Ammonia Source?

[Capoe126]

Hello all,

I have a waterbox 20 up and running and had some questions about starting the cycle. Tank has been started with LifeRock and Caribsea live sand as well so that should help cycle as well. I have a Bottle of Fritzturbo start 900 recommended to me by my LFS. I have been considering both fish or fishless cycle and am leaning toward fishless.

My question is what is the best ammonia source? Do I even need an ammonia source?
LFS is like 40 minutes away (I do have a petco and petsmart close) so if I do need a source is there anything household that can be used?

Also am I correct in saying that ammonia should be added to a level of about 2 ppm and then beginning measuring ammonia and nitrate from there. Cycle is going well when ammonia hits zero and nitrates begin to fall?

How do I accurately dose that ammonia source to 2 ppm depending on source?

Thank you!

 

[Jekyl]

Can either toss a piece of shrimp in there or ghost feed.

 

[brandon429]

this w help:

no the 2 ppm isn't needed. simply add the bottle bac per direction, add a pinch of fish food. 2ppn is an arbitrary number some bottle bac strains use as a threshold it has nothing to do with completing a cycle, or proving one ready. its a fine level to hit, and so is .25 ppm ammonia far under 2 ppm

both systems will carry the same fish bioload, we don't get 'more' bacteria with more ammonia, we get the degree of bacteria that surfaces permit an attachment point.

your tank will carry fish without burning them from any time onward after adding fritz. the actual bac stick to all surfaces immune to a full water change in 24 hours with fritz, its the fastest-adhering in test threads. they instantly handle tank ammonia, the source wont matter. shrimp is ok but you'd need to remove it vs a pinch of feed which just goes in the tank like normal.

so there's no way you can fail, and you don't even have to test for anything. bottle bac works, has been extensively tested. some people are worried about getting dead bottle bac, I'm not. haven't seen it in any cycling thread we've undertaken in 20 years although others have indeed found a few.

 

[Capoe126]

this w help:

no the 2 ppm isn't needed. simply add the bottle bac per direction, add a pinch of fish food. 2ppn is an arbitrary number some bottle bac strains use as a threshold it has nothing to do with completing a cycle, or proving one ready. its a fine level to hit, and so is .25 ppm ammonia far under 2 ppm

both systems will carry the same fish bioload, we don't get 'more' bacteria with more ammonia, we get the degree of bacteria that surfaces permit an attachment point.

your tank will carry fish without burning them from any time onward after adding fritz. the actual bac stick to all surfaces immune to a full water change in 24 hours with fritz, its the fastest-adhering in test threads. they instantly handle tank ammonia, the source wont matter. shrimp is ok but you'd need to remove it vs a pinch of feed which just goes in the tank like normal.

so there's no way you can fail, and you don't even have to test for anything. bottle bac works, has been extensively tested. some people are worried about getting dead bottle bac, I'm not. haven't seen it in any cycling thread we've undertaken in 20 years although others have indeed found a few.

Thanks for the thorough answer. This is a classroom tank so I want to the kids to see the N cycle in action. When ghost feeding, if i add the pinch of food when should I expect to see the ammonia "spike" so it can be read with a test kit?

If I am using filter sock (plan to upgrade later) I have read that it should be removed during addition of bacteria since that is something that will be removed in the future.

Thanks again for your help I see you commenting often assisting people with cycling questions and I am always sure to take note.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Thanks for the thorough answer. This is a classroom tank so I want to the kids to see the N cycle in action. When ghost feeding, if i add the pinch of food when should I expect to see the ammonia "spike" so it can be read with a test kit?

If I am using filter sock (plan to upgrade later) I have read that it should be removed during addition of bacteria since that is something that will be removed in the future.

Thanks again for your help I see you commenting often assisting people with cycling questions and I am always sure to take note.

The problem with ghost feeding is that you may never see a real spike in ammonia, especially if you add bottled bacteria. There really is no way of knowing how fast the bacteria will convert the food you added into detectable ammonia, and then to NO2 and NO3.

If you want to try the shrimp method, I think you will have a better chance of seeing the full nitrogen cycle. It may smell a bit, but the large amount of decaying food should out pace the starting nitrogen cycle. I would even consider leaving the shrimp out at room temp for a few hours to allow the decay process to get a head start before putting it in the tank.

If it weren't for the classroom discussion, I would go with @brandon429's method.

 

[Azedenkae]

Hello all,

I have a waterbox 20 up and running and had some questions about starting the cycle. Tank has been started with LifeRock and Caribsea live sand as well so that should help cycle as well. I have a Bottle of Fritzturbo start 900 recommended to me by my LFS. I have been considering both fish or fishless cycle and am leaning toward fishless.

My question is what is the best ammonia source? Do I even need an ammonia source?
LFS is like 40 minutes away (I do have a petco and petsmart close) so if I do need a source is there anything household that can be used?

Also am I correct in saying that ammonia should be added to a level of about 2 ppm and then beginning measuring ammonia and nitrate from there. Cycle is going well when ammonia hits zero and nitrates begin to fall?

How do I accurately dose that ammonia source to 2 ppm depending on source?

Thank you!

I would suggest using pure ammonia, like Dr. Tim's One and Only Ammonia. Other ammonia can work I suppose, but why not go for what is proven. It's like $8 on Amazon so is not even that expensive.

I used to cycle with other ammonia sources, like shrimps and fish food and stuff, but had since been converted to the pure ammonia camp for a number of reasons.
1. It is more controlled. You can add a certain amount to reach the desired ammonia level, no need to consider ammonia rising too little/too much. Instructions are printed on the bottle, but actual number of drops may vary since your actual water volume can be a lot less compared to the tank volume considering live rock, etc.
2. It is more consistent. Once you have determined how much you need to add the first time, next time when you need to add it you know exactly how much to add.
3. It limits nutrients available to hererotrophs. (Most) nitrifiers are autotrophs, meaning they produce their own necessary organic compounds from carbon dioxide, readily available in the water. Heterotrophs are like us, they consume organic matter. When there is an organic source readily available, the heterotrophs can outcompete autotrophs for space and make it harder for autotrophs to spread as needed. Why risk this when pure ammonia works perfectly to ensure the autotrophs can outcompete the heterotrophs?

So, as for when to dose and how to tell how the cycle is going - well, there are actual schools of thought as to what cycling even achieves, so different people will have different views on this. My view is that cycling in most cases is culturing enough nitrifiers to handle ammonia produced by a full tank in a day, which has been considered to be 2ppm.

So simply put, to me an aquarium is cycled when ammonia and nitrite reads 0 daily from a 2ppm ammonia input. Some people say measuring nitrites is not necessary, but I disagree. The thing is, in saltwater nitrites is not as toxic to fish and so on, so nitrite can reach much higher levels compared to freshwater aquariums. But they still need to be handled, because there is a certain point where nitrites become harmful to fish. Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley wrote a great piece on this: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

So it is probably good to know that your nitrite-oxidizing microbes can handle nitrite, rather than let it climb to high enough levels to start harming things.

With that said, cycling with live rock is a bit different from cycling with dry rock. You should already have the beneficial microbes available, and you may have critters that you may not want to subject 2ppm ammonia directly to. No matter, you can always dose something like 0.5 ppm ammonia instead, and see if it is all consumed within six hours. Note that either way, you should wait for both ammonia and nitrite to drop to 0 before trying again if mecessary. Some people only wait for ammonia to drop to 0 before dosing again, but yeah I prefer both ammonia and nitrite.

But! When you say Life Rock, I think you may actually mean Life Rock for real not live rock, as in the CaribSea Life Rock which is actually dry rock rather than live rock? If so, then yeah cycle with 2ppm rather than 0.5ppm or whatever.

 

[Capoe126]

I would suggest using pure ammonia, like Dr. Tim's One and Only Ammonia. Other ammonia can work I suppose, but why not go for what is proven. It's like $8 on Amazon so is not even that expensive.

I used to cycle with other ammonia sources, like shrimps and fish food and stuff, but had since been converted to the pure ammonia camp for a number of reasons.
1. It is more controlled. You can add a certain amount to reach the desired ammonia level, no need to consider ammonia rising too little/too much. Instructions are printed on the bottle, but actual number of drops may vary since your actual water volume can be a lot less compared to the tank volume considering live rock, etc.
2. It is more consistent. Once you have determined how much you need to add the first time, next time when you need to add it you know exactly how much to add.
3. It limits nutrients available to hererotrophs. (Most) nitrifiers are autotrophs, meaning they produce their own necessary organic compounds from carbon dioxide, readily available in the water. Heterotrophs are like us, they consume organic matter. When there is an organic source readily available, the heterotrophs can outcompete autotrophs for space and make it harder for autotrophs to spread as needed. Why risk this when pure ammonia works perfectly to ensure the autotrophs can outcompete the heterotrophs?

So, as for when to dose and how to tell how the cycle is going - well, there are actual schools of thought as to what cycling even achieves, so different people will have different views on this. My view is that cycling in most cases is culturing enough nitrifiers to handle ammonia produced by a full tank in a day, which has been considered to be 2ppm.

So simply put, to me an aquarium is cycled when ammonia and nitrite reads 0 daily from a 2ppm ammonia input. Some people say measuring nitrites is not necessary, but I disagree. The thing is, in saltwater nitrites is not as toxic to fish and so on, so nitrite can reach much higher levels compared to freshwater aquariums. But they still need to be handled, because there is a certain point where nitrites become harmful to fish. Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley wrote a great piece on this: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

So it is probably good to know that your nitrite-oxidizing microbes can handle nitrite, rather than let it climb to high enough levels to start harming things.

With that said, cycling with live rock is a bit different from cycling with dry rock. You should already have the beneficial microbes available, and you may have critters that you may not want to subject 2ppm ammonia directly to. No matter, you can always dose something like 0.5 ppm ammonia instead, and see if it is all consumed within six hours. Note that either way, you should wait for both ammonia and nitrite to drop to 0 before trying again if mecessary. Some people only wait for ammonia to drop to 0 before dosing again, but yeah I prefer both ammonia and nitrite.

But! When you say Life Rock, I think you may actually mean Life Rock for real not live rock, as in the CaribSea Life Rock which is actually dry rock rather than live rock? If so, then yeah cycle with 2ppm rather than 0.5ppm or whatever.

Thanks! I will be sure to read that article. Yea overall it seems like I would probably be good to dump the fritz add a fish and let the tank be on it's way.

However I want to display to the students how we can simulate ammonia input into the system (though I understand bio-load ammonia input may be much different) and our seeded bacteria need to prove that they can handle converting this ammonia to nitrites and finally nitrates. I am going to have them do the water testing and hopefully see clear rises and falls of ammonia and nitrate. It seems like there is not much reason to test nitrites? I suppose that it is a given that once the bacteria start converting ammonia they'll successfully convert to nitrates?

Yes I meant Caribsea Life rock, which is apparently seeded with dormant bacteria of it's own, so perhaps a little more beneficial than dry rock. I wanted to avoid potential hitchhikers of live rock.

 

[Azedenkae]

Thanks! I will be sure to read that article. Yea overall it seems like I would probably be good to dump the fritz add a fish and let the tank be on it's way.

However I want to display to the students how we can simulate ammonia input into the system (though I understand bio-load ammonia input may be much different) and our seeded bacteria need to prove that they can handle converting this ammonia to nitrites and finally nitrates. I am going to have them do the water testing and hopefully see clear rises and falls of ammonia and nitrate. It seems like there is not much reason to test nitrites? I suppose that it is a given that once the bacteria start converting ammonia they'll successfully convert to nitrates?

Yes I meant Caribsea Life rock, which is apparently seeded with dormant bacteria of it's own, so perhaps a little more beneficial than dry rock. I wanted to avoid potential hitchhikers of live rock.

If the purpose is to teach the kids about the nitrogen cycle, I think it is absolutely important to test ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, to let them see how one is converted into another. Especially since nitrite-oxidizers tend to grow slower than ammonia-oxidizers, so you might see some 'resistance' with nitrite going down.

Now, a question is, what is the most important thing you want to show to your students? That the beneficial microbes can handle ammonia input? Then that would mean after a dictated period, ammonia and nitrite should be measured 0, and nitrate rises. Depending on how much nitrite-oxidizers has already been established, you may never see nitrite read anything other than 0, which I am not entirely sure is the message you are trying to get through to the students. Same with ammonia. If it is just a single fish, it may just read a constant 0 to 0.25ppm ammonia or whatever without really moving in either direction, whether the fish just ate and pooped or otherwise.

On the other hand, if you want the students to actually be able to read parameters as they change, then that would mean needing the students to be there from the getgo. It could mean as well that there might not be enough ammonia-oxidizers yet to handle ammonia produced by the fish, and it could potentially get out of hand and kill the fish. There was a thread on Reddit a few days ago when someone was cycling for 21 days, then added a single clownfish and immediately ammonia was rising by 0.2 ppm a day or so. If that happens, you'd need to use something like Prime to prevent ammonia from harming the fish. Or, you would need to do a water change, but then the parameter readings would be affected, so not sure how good of a teaching moment that is.

 

[Capoe126]

If the purpose is to teach the kids about the nitrogen cycle, I think it is absolutely important to test ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, to let them see how one is converted into another. Especially since nitrite-oxidizers tend to grow slower than ammonia-oxidizers, so you might see some 'resistance' with nitrite going down.

Now, a question is, what is the most important thing you want to show to your students? That the beneficial microbes can handle ammonia input? Then that would mean after a dictated period, ammonia and nitrite should be measured 0, and nitrate rises. Depending on how much nitrite-oxidizers has already been established, you may never see nitrite read anything other than 0, which I am not entirely sure is the message you are trying to get through to the students. Same with ammonia. If it is just a single fish, it may just read a constant 0 to 0.25ppm ammonia or whatever without really moving in either direction, whether the fish just ate and pooped or otherwise.

On the other hand, if you want the students to actually be able to read parameters as they change, then that would mean needing the students to be there from the getgo. It could mean as well that there might not be enough ammonia-oxidizers yet to handle ammonia produced by the fish, and it could potentially get out of hand and kill the fish. There was a thread on Reddit a few days ago when someone was cycling for 21 days, then added a single clownfish and immediately ammonia was rising by 0.2 ppm a day or so. If that happens, you'd need to use something like Prime to prevent ammonia from harming the fish. Or, you would need to do a water change, but then the parameter readings would be affected, so not sure how good of a teaching moment that is.

Yes it is going to be difficult to get these observable results to be as clear the nitrogen cycle is explained in charts and such, especially in a club that only meets every other day or so. This is often a challenge with school labs. I am going to try to dose ammonia using dr. tims. We will take a reading that day as it seems to be the most trustworthy way to read ammonia. Then we will go from there with nitrite and nitrate tests. I like your idea of testing for nitrites to help communicate the cycle to the kids.

 

[Malcontent]

Don't use food unless you want to stink up the classroom and cloud up the tank.