Ethics of adding fish to a system with confirmed pathogens

[nthn135]

Hi All,

Long time lurker, love this forum. Hopefully can get some insight on my current struggle.

Despite my best efforts, I recently had a pretty bad outbreak of Crypt (maybe Velvet, based on the speed of infection/spread) in my 5 month old 100 gallon system and lost 4 fish (so far). I'm in the process of setting up a hospital tank to get the remaining 5 fish out of the display and will run FALLOW in my display for the typical 76 days.

I've considered switching over to the "ich management" method outlined originally I think by @Paul B? I like the idea of keeping a healthy system with fish that are 'immune' to some of these pathogens due to high quality/varied food, biodiveristy, etc.

My question is around people's thoughts on adding fish to a system that you know for sure has had ich/velvet/etc and has not yet gone through the 76 day FALLOW period. Is that irresponsible/unethical in our hobby? If one decides to go with the ich management method, at what point do you say to yourself, "I know there is ich in my system, but I'm confident that the majority of any added fish will survive because of _____".

Appreciate any insights, thanks all!

 

[Cthulukelele]

I see a spot or 4 on a fish every 5 or 6 months and have since I started the tank. That being said, there are certain fish like acanthurus tangs where I would say it's borderline unethical to put them in a disease management tank because of how prone to being overwhelmed they are by disease. Other fish like healthy well fed clowns should NEVER die to something like ich once established in my opinion, so I see no harm in their addition

 

[Spare time]

PaulB's tank is an extreme outlier and you should never assume what works in his tank will work for yours. His tank is so old these pathogens may not act the same and things also may predate on ich in a tank like that.

 

[Goaway]

I know my system is ich free. I never treated with copper. how do I know my system is ich free?

At 7 months of being pregnant my tank started to decline as I could not maintain the system. I was in so much pain and went into early labor at 8 months. I had an emergency c-section and could not manage the tank for over 6 weeks.

Let me explain, during my decline, dinos took over. There was snot all over the place from one end to the other after 2 weeks of me having my baby. The fish survived, lost all of my acropora, lps and softies survived.

Now how do I know there is no ich?
This clown has not had 1 spot since I added him/her. Not even during the doom phase.

Picture from this morning.



This doesn't contribute to the question. But, I've kept my fish fed well. The only fish I ever put into quarantine was my ribbon eel.

 

[anemonalex]

I would personally try getting my fish healthy with food/antibiotics in moderation. Adding more variables can be a head ache. I would keep is simple and improve my current system.

 

[Mschmidt]

For me, it's a risk/reward calculation. Are you pretty sure you are dooming the fish? then unethical. Are you pretty sure the fish is hearty enough and the pathogen would have trouble getting a foot hold? probably fine. The huge gray area in between the two? That's for you to decide.

For me, this is a similar conversation to tank size, sure my kole tang fits in a 4-foot tank, but seeing him in a 5-foot I can't imagine going shorter.

I know there are some pathogens in my tank dangerous to me and my family (I've gotten coral from a tank that sent it's owner to the hospital), and I can reasonably assume there are some dangerous to the fish (I've skipped qt for some--but not all of my fish, qt'd none of my inverts, and dipped some of my coral).

 

[Cthulukelele]

Hi All,

Long time lurker, love this forum. Hopefully can get some insight on my current struggle.

Despite my best efforts, I recently had a pretty bad outbreak of Crypt (maybe Velvet, based on the speed of infection/spread) in my 5 month old 100 gallon system and lost 4 fish (so far). I'm in the process of setting up a hospital tank to get the remaining 5 fish out of the display and will run FALLOW in my display for the typical 76 days.

I've considered switching over to the "ich management" method outlined originally I think by @Paul B? I like the idea of keeping a healthy system with fish that are 'immune' to some of these pathogens due to high quality/varied food, biodiveristy, etc.

My question is around people's thoughts on adding fish to a system that you know for sure has had ich/velvet/etc and has not yet gone through the 76 day FALLOW period. Is that irresponsible/unethical in our hobby? If one decides to go with the ich management method, at what point do you say to yourself, "I know there is ich in my system, but I'm confident that the majority of any added fish will survive because of _____".

Appreciate any insights, thanks all!

How many fish remain? Do they still have active disease symptoms? Do you have a pic of the tank?

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Ethics are different for everyone. One might say it's unethical to keep fish in tanks altogether. Each of us draw the line somewhere. In this community there is a majority consensus, but plenty of outliers.

I for one would never listen to Paul B on the subject of fish health. With that being said, I think that the majority of our tanks are not as pristine as we think when it comes to pathogens and parasites. Like the post above where someone cited they did nothing for QT and the absence of proof is proof. But that's not necessarily true either, it's more about not understanding how these biological mechanisms work.

I truly think that most of our tanks naturally keep these pathogens and parasites unnoticed. Whether we like it or not, our tanks are a version of what Paul consideres his philosophy.

As for where I would land on the ethics scale, I don't see a problem with adding fish to a seemingly healthy tank. Ethics aside, you're going to know soon enough whether that was a good decision or not. It all comes down to a personal judgement call. The weight of a person's judgement call is rooted in experience and knowledge, and is different for everyone.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi All,

Long time lurker, love this forum. Hopefully can get some insight on my current struggle.

Despite my best efforts, I recently had a pretty bad outbreak of Crypt (maybe Velvet, based on the speed of infection/spread) in my 5 month old 100 gallon system and lost 4 fish (so far). I'm in the process of setting up a hospital tank to get the remaining 5 fish out of the display and will run FALLOW in my display for the typical 76 days.

I've considered switching over to the "ich management" method outlined originally I think by @Paul B? I like the idea of keeping a healthy system with fish that are 'immune' to some of these pathogens due to high quality/varied food, biodiveristy, etc.

My question is around people's thoughts on adding fish to a system that you know for sure has had ich/velvet/etc and has not yet gone through the 76 day FALLOW period. Is that irresponsible/unethical in our hobby? If one decides to go with the ich management method, at what point do you say to yourself, "I know there is ich in my system, but I'm confident that the majority of any added fish will survive because of _____".

Appreciate any insights, thanks all!

Ich management is often a short-cut for many and while has worked in some applications has also failed. Best bet is to go traditional and treat with coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a tank from a second hand store or a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.

 

[nthn135]

How many fish remain? Do they still have active disease symptoms? Do you have a pic of the tank?

Heres a tank pic and a few pics of my McChullochi clown who is infected.

5 fish remain. 2x McCullochi Clowns, Foxface, Tomini, Melanurus

Dead are Royal Gramma, Orange Spot Goby, 2x Lyretail

Thanks

 

[nthn135]

Ich management is often a short-cut for many and while has worked in some applications has also failed. Best bet is to go traditional and treat with coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a tank from a second hand store or a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.

Hey Vetteguy thanks. Venture a guess on what I'm dealing with?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey Vetteguy thanks. Venture a guess on what I'm dealing with?

This fish is showing ich parasite. Fish is also a little thin. You will need to isolate this fish and any others and treat with coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a tank from a second hand store or a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.

 

[Paul B]

My question is around people's thoughts on adding fish to a system that you know for sure has had ich/velvet/etc and has not yet gone through the 76 day FALLOW period. Is that irresponsible/unethical in our hobby? If one decides to go with the ich management method, at what point do you say to yourself, "I know there is ich in my system, but I'm confident that the majority of any added fish will survive because of _____".

I think it depends on how you keep your tank. The vast majority of tanks are very new (a year or 2) and are not set up correctly with enough rock or "tight" hiding places and are not feeding correctly. Not even close to keep a fish immune. Pellets, freeze dried and flakes won't do it. In probably 40+ years I have not lost "one" fish to any "communicable" disease. Fish disease is a non issue to me and I never think about it.

My tank and methods are very simple and I have no controllers or feeders and hardly change water and use no additives.

I for one would never listen to Paul B on the subject of fish health.

OMG, Sister. (I also wouldn't listen to me) 95% of this stuff I make up and I start a new tank every Tuesday because every Monday it crashes.

PaulB's tank is an extreme outlier and you should never assume what works in his tank will work for yours. His tank is so old these pathogens may not act the same and things also may predate on ich in a tank like that.

Actually it's all Youse Guys that are outliers. I was here holding my empty fish tank when the first blue devil was imported. I was probably standing on the dock when the ship came in.

All this quarantining and medication/observation came out a couple of decades later