Gill Flukes Won't Go Away

nuxx · Dec 22, 2022

I always do three rounds of prazi and find it a great tool along with copper (obviously not in the display).

Use both for all new fish in QT. Prazi first since I feel it's easier on the fish and allows them to get used to QT, then copper.

Jay Hemdal · Dec 22, 2022

nuxx said:
I always do three rounds of prazi and find it a great tool along with copper (obviously not in the display).

Use both for all new fish in QT. Prazi first since I feel it's easier on the fish and allows them to get used to QT, then copper.

Just an FYI - we typically suggest that copper be done before prazi, since we are seeing too many fish dying from protozoans in the first few weeks, and three rounds of prazi takes 20 days or so.

If people are using coppersafe or copper power, with some care, they can run prazi at the same time, IF they have confirmed flukes.

The basic issue is that velvet and ich kill much faster than flukes do, so we want to eliminate them first.

Jay

nuxx · Dec 22, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
Just an FYI - we typically suggest that copper be done before prazi, since we are seeing too many fish dying from protozoans in the first few weeks, and three rounds of prazi takes 20 days or so.

If people are using coppersafe or copper power, with some care, they can run prazi at the same time, IF they have confirmed flukes.

The basic issue is that velvet and ich kill much faster than flukes do, so we want to eliminate them first.

Jay

Nice to know

Just got lucky before!

Lil Puff · Dec 22, 2022

Just wondering if the video worked. Not sure if I did it correctly.

Jay Hemdal · Dec 22, 2022

nuxx said:
Nice to know

Just got lucky before!

If you are adept at catching the early signs of velvet/ich, your process is fine. The trouble is, we see a lot of members here who miss those early signs and then end up losing fish to those diseases because they didn't start copper soon enough.

Jay

nuxx · Dec 22, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
If you are adept at catching the early signs of velvet/ich, your process is fine. The trouble is, we see a lot of members here who miss those early signs and then end up losing fish to those diseases because they didn't start copper soon enough.

Jay

Makes total sense, think of myself as being OCD so.......

But yeah, typically start with very healthy fish

Lil Puff · Dec 22, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
Did you ever see any improvement after dosing prazi? I'm still wondering what this actually is, since the flukes haven't been diagnosed directly. If you dose with prazi and the fish get better for a week or so and then get worse, that helps indicate that it is flukes. Another idea would be to give one fish (the grouper?) a FW dip and see if that helps with the symptoms, at least temporarily. Again, that would help diagnose gill parasites. You may not see anything fall off the fish unless you use a microscope. There are a lot of tricks to doing a FW dip safely, I'll post them at the end of this message.

Praziquantel has an issue where it becomes less effective each time you use it. A species of bacteria grows in the tank that eats prazi as a food source. Each time you dose, the bacteria grows more and gets better at eating it. After three treatments, it is consuming the prazi almost as fast as you are adding it. There is no good work-around for this, but some people dose it at 4 ppm at that point.

Going back to the original symptoms - is it just rapid breathing and flashing? A video would help me see how fast the breathing actually is.

Fenbendazole has a nasty toxicity issue when used in the water, but only against some fish species...trouble is, there is not a comprehensive list of what fish.

FW dips:

“Freshwater dips” are commonly used to dislodge parasites from the skin of marine fishes. To perform these dips, the fish is captured and placed in a dimly lit container of clean freshwater the same temperature as the aquarium system it came from. Do not use reverse osmosis or deionized water, as there is no buffer capacity and the pH can drop too low. Dechlorinated tap water is suitable unless it is very acidic. The dip container should be covered with a clear material so that the fish is kept from jumping out, yet can still be observed for overt signs of stress. Hold the fish in the freshwater for five minutes to seven minutes. If acute stress is seen, the dip may need to be terminated early. The idea is to dislodge the parasites, without unduly harming the fish. Many aquarists opt to use reverse osmosis water, and adjust the pH to match the aquarium, but this is simply not necessary if the pH of the freshwater is between 7.5 and 8.5. Some advocate to not aerate the water during the dip, but this is incorrect. The water motion from air bubbles can help keep the fish active so that they can be better assessed for stress. Additionally, the air bubbles help dislodge some parasites during the dip process.
Some caveats:
1) Some fish will give extreme reactions to being dipped (hepatus tangs for example), as long as they were swimming well before the dip, it is best to ignore that behavior and continue for a full five minutes.
2) Moribund fish can be dipped, but understand that the acute stress from the dip may prove fatal. The dip water should still be checked for parasites in order to possibly help any remaining fish. Moribund would include any fish that was easy to capture or a fish with a respiration rate of 200+ BPM.
3) Choose the type of net wisely, some fish have spines that will become caught in the netting. Have a pair of scissors handy to cut the net if this happens.
4) Dropping a fish while moving it to and from the dip is common, take care. Some fish have venomous spines, so know that before trying to handle any fish.
5) Fish shaking their heads violently after capture is one cause of mechanical exophthalmos (popeye), so try to gently restrain them in the net while moving them.

Jay

The grouper isn’t breathing rapidly anymore but here is a video. Reposted this as I’m not sure if the video worked.

Jay Hemdal · Dec 22, 2022

Lil Puff said:
The grouper isn’t breathing rapidly anymore but here is a video.

It's breathing fine. Remind me again, what symptoms is it showing? Sorry - I'm juggling too many threads and am losing track....

Jay

Lil Puff · Dec 22, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
It's breathing fine. Remind me again, what symptoms is it showing? Sorry - I'm juggling too many threads and am losing track....

Jay

I see your in a lot of threads helping people with sick fish which is very nice of you so I'm not surprised you lose track. The grouper is Flashing a lot, loss of colour - turned white, hanging at the top of the tank, opening its mouth wide for up to ten seconds at a time similar to yawning, coughing, sudden bursts of speed, and shaking its head.

Jay Hemdal · Dec 22, 2022

Lil Puff said:
I see your in a lot of threads helping people with sick fish which is very nice of you so I'm not surprised you lose track. The grouper is Flashing a lot, loss of colour - turned white, hanging at the top of the tank, opening its mouth wide for up to ten seconds at a time similar to yawning, coughing, sudden bursts of speed, and shaking its head.

O.K., that sure does sound like flukes. There are three common flukes; gill flukes, gyrodactylus skin flukes and the large Neobenedenia skin flukes. Maybe the grouper had two types and you’ve managed to get rid of just the gill flukes?
I wish you could do hyposalinity……
Jay

Lil Puff · Dec 23, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
O.K., that sure does sound like flukes. There are three common flukes; gill flukes, gyrodactylus skin flukes and the large Neobenedenia skin flukes. Maybe the grouper had two types and you’ve managed to get rid of just the gill flukes?
I wish you could do hyposalinity……
Jay

I think the problem is that I have tried to get rid of the flukes so much the bacteria are consuming the praziquantel before it has time to work because the medication used to work before but I only used it twice not 4 times so they weren’t completely eradicated. Now the medication is not working what so ever. The medication I am using is the tablet form of praziquantel. If I were to use a liquid form of prazi such as prazipro would it make a difference or will the bacteria still consume fast. If I were to get a large quarantine pond for the sharks and fill it with water from the dt would the prazi consuming bacteria be transferred into the pond? If it isn’t I could maybe get a quarantine pond and dose that with prazi for the sharks and then do hypo salinity for the rest of the fish in the dt. Would that work? Or is there another medication I can use to eradicate flukes that I can just add to the dt?
thanks, Seth

Jay Hemdal · Dec 23, 2022

The other fluke medications such as organophosphates and formalin have human and fish toxicity issues.

One that you might consider is Fenbendazole. I've had some toxic reactions with it in fish, but not in the species you have listed. It is usually dosed orally, but I have a reference from Noga that lists 25 ppm for 12 hours (not sure if you have to do a water change then or what). I could probably locate a 24 hour dose for you if you go that route.

Liquid prazi would not be any more effective, the bacteria would still break it down.

Transference of the bacteria in water is unknown. It is known that the bacteria live in a tank for many months, ready to activate to break down prazi again.

Circling back to the grouper - could you easily catch it for a FW dip? If you gave it a dip and its condition improved the next day, that would help confirm ectoparasites. If it doesn't improve, then something else could be going on.

Jay

Lil Puff · Dec 25, 2022

Just noticed these tiny white specs on the groupers skin. I can only see them when he’s at the top of the tank close to the light. It doesn’t look like ich. Will get around to doing a fresh water dip soon. If you look really closely at these photos you can see the spots.
@Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal · Dec 25, 2022

Lil Puff said:
Just noticed these tiny white specs on the groupers skin. I can only see them when he’s at the top of the tank close to the light. It doesn’t look like ich. Will get around to doing a fresh water dip soon. If you look really closely at these photos you can see the spots.
@Jay Hemdal

Why would you rule out ich? I can see the spots, and some of them seem to extend to the fins, just like ich does. They could be mucus plugs, but I can't say for certain....

Jay

Lil Puff · Dec 25, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
Why would you rule out ich? I can see the spots, and some of them seem to extend to the fins, just like ich does. They could be mucus plugs, but I can't say for certain....

Jay

I have had ich before in another tank and it didn’t look like that. The white spots were much more prominent than these ones. I am am still a newbie so that was just a guess lol. What are mucus plugs?

Jay Hemdal · Dec 25, 2022

Lil Puff said:
I have had ich before in another tank and it didn’t look like that. The white spots were much more prominent than these ones. I am am still a newbie so that was just a guess lol. What are mucus plugs?

Mucus plugs are larger than ich, and tend to be more elongate, not round. They are produced in some fish due to an irritation - flukes, water quality, etc.

Jay

Lil Puff · Dec 26, 2022

Have you had any experience with trichlorfon? I found this medication that says it’s effective against flukes. I will see if I can do a freshwater dip tomorrow. Continuing on with the fenbendazole, is it reef safe and can it be dosed into the dt? Is this the fenbendazole you were talking about?

Jay Hemdal · Dec 26, 2022

Lil Puff said:
Have you had any experience with trichlorfon? I found this medication that says it’s effective against flukes. I will see if I can do a freshwater dip tomorrow. Continuing on with the fenbendazole, is it reef safe and can it be dosed into the dt? Is this the fenbendazole you were talking about?

Trichlorfon is dangerous to use and will kill some fish (sharks for sure, lionfish and eels also I think).
My curator at the Shedd aquarium, back in the 1980’s wouldn’t let us use it (even with good PPE) and I’ve followed his advice ever since.
That link is for flubendazole, not fenbendazole. They are related, but not exactly the same, sorry, I can’t advise you on the differences though.

Jay