Got a microscope, help me ID?

[N2950H]

My tank is only a few weeks old. A few days ago, almost overnight, I saw this lovely stuff pop up. I let it go for a couple days while I did some research and ordered a microscope to help me ID it. It got pretty bad about 3 days in and then started to back off. I have done nothing but try to vacuum it off the sand bed thus far. If someone can help me ID this so I can start down the right path I'd appreciate it.

You'll have to excuse the poor image quality from the microscope, it's literally been out of the box for 10 minutes...not sure I'm using the camera to the best of its ability yet.

 

[sfin52]

Reminds me a lot of dino.

 

[LoneStarReef]

Can't speak to the microscope images but it sure looks like Dinoflagellates. As your tank matures it will go through these ugly stages. Be patient and let it do its thing. It isn't broken. Also, be patient adding corals. No rush. Let it mature first. It probably hasn't even fully cycled yet. Did you start with dry or live rock or a combo of both?

 

[maroun.c]

+1 for dinos but again would be great if someone would post a link to a library of hiw things look on microscope views

 

[sfin52]

there is a sticky about dino @mcarroll posted one

 

[sfin52]

I don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info:

• some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak
• how to avoid common dino outbreaks
• and what do if your tank is already having an outbreak

Let's get started!

Common Contributing Factors
Some of the most common factors that contribute to the dino outbreaks we cover in this thread are:

• the tank being new, rock being immature or the tank being otherwise highly disturbed, such as by other harsh tank treatments
• hard core nutrient reduction tools being used, such as
  • organic carbon dosing
  • excess "bio media"
  • algae filtration
  • nutrient adsorbing media like GFO

These four factors, or excess nutrient removal generally, play – usually in combination; rarely just one factor alone – pretty directly into dino's conversion to the blooming, phagotrophic, mat forming, toxin-producing side of their nature.

• Starvation Is Their Cue
  • Dino's seem to prefer life as autotrophic epiphytes on macro algae – chaeto morpha seems to be one of their favorite types to host in. (Maybe this fact can be useful to us; maybe sometimes chaeto ought not be used, or used with special consideration)
  • For several reasons, dino's seem to be terrible at nutrient uptake. This means they are more prone to starvation than many or most other microorganisms they have to compete with.....especially bacteria, which can scavenge free nutrients down to CRAZY low levels...low enough to starve out other microbes or algae.
  • With their protective mucus mats, potential to generate wicked toxins, and ability to survive not only by way of photosynthesis and dissolved nutrients, but alternately, when times get tough, by "eating their neighbors". (The least of their tricks.)
  • Dino's generally gain a competitive edge against their competitors AND their predators in a nutrient-starved environment. Keep reading!

How To Avoid Having A Dino Outbreak
In a nutshell, here's how to avoid dino outbreaks and begin to normalize your tank if you already have an outbreak:

• Phosphate Control
  • DO NOT let your phosphates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
• Nitrate Control
  • Do not let your nitrates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Putting the N in dinoflagellates
  • See: A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
• Starvation conditions (zero or near-zero nitrate or phosphate levels) should be avoided.
  • Keep in mind that dissolved nutrients are not "waste products" to be eliminated
  • They are nutrients for the critters you care about like corals
  • The are also nutrients for a potential multitude of mostly-unknown/anonymous microbes that are needed to bring stability to a new tank.
  • Once excess nutrients have an impact, in fact, they usually can't be simply eliminated with media anyway – they've probably already had an impact on the tank's microbial cycle. (See blog link #3 at bottom.)
  • This all adds up to skipping almost all "extra" nutrient removing steps during the tank's initial development. This period seems to be especially critical, and longer in a tank started with dry, dead rock. Don't use anything until it's absolutely needed and other options have been fully exhausted...and be conservative with how you apply any nutrient removing tool.

What to do if you're tank is already having a dino outbreak
When attempting to control an organism like a dinoflagellate, confirming the ID will help, if possible:

• So to begin with, make sure you have Dinos – you should have multiple factors at work...these factors were mentioned in the first section above. The less these factors seem to describe your tank, the less likely any of this advice will be correct for your situation – so post questions!
  • no special equipment is needed to confirm whether your algae sample has dino's and/or other algae
  • Use @taricha's dino confirmation guide on posts #986-987.
• Once you have confirmed that you have dino's you should ideally figure out what type(s) your tank is hosting. (Multiple species blooms seem almost as common as single-strain blooms.)
  • A basic 1200x microscope will be useful and doesn't have to be fancier than a $15 toy scope. Even a $50 scope is a lot nicer, if you think you might be more serious about it.
  • See: Selecting a microscope for more discussion.

• Compare your dino's with photos where @taricha and @Beardo have already made ID's:
• (Click the link. Then click the SEARCHbutton at the bottom of the search page.)
  • ostreopsis
    • Consider focusing first on posts #86 and #905
  • prorocentrum
  • amphidinium
    • Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods (they are unique and somewhat more experimental)
  • coolia
  • (other searches coming)

• Extra Measures
  Generally, these tools will give extra control in terms of removing and/or killing cells in the water column....usually, along with other measures explained here, expediting the close of the dino bloom.
  • UV
    You can find discussions throughout the thread by using this search, with a great breakout of spec's on post #3770.
  • Diatom Filtration
    Effective, but not that popular. The more common units like the classic Vortex are somewhat difficult to use, and the newer units like the new Marineland Polishing Filter are relatively unknown. Still worthy of consideration.

So, after you get a measure of control, make sure you read What is the End Game?

Miscellaneous Goodies

• Post #2725 has a great diary of tank observations, test results and time-series graphs during the treatment for dino's from one of our members.
• Disturbances we cause in our tanksare what allow microbial/algal populations to shift and ugly/harmful blooms to happen.
  • See: Evidence for the Existence of Three Primary Strategies in Plants and Its Relevance to Ecological and Evolutionary Theory

• Take measures to assure that your feeding system is very consistent. An auto-feeder is an overlooked tool on most tanks. Look at Eheim's feeders...set them on low with high quality flake food. Just don't let them run your whole feeding program as flake isn't great food.

• Find out what inconsistencies you can eliminate with your husbandry to prevent more unneeded disturbances and the resulting microbial/algal changes. This could be changes to lighting or water chemistry – make them as consistent as you can.

• E.g. If you're adding new livestock all the time, stop it. If you have a color-tunable light fixture, stop re-tuning the colors. If you don't have an ATO keeping your salinity stable, get one. If you're still managing your dosing by hand, get an $80 4-head doser. Etc.

• If you provide the stability, then your dino's competitors will start competing with them and their predators will start eating them!!

• One thing that seems to help things progress is to stop scraping down the algae off your glass....once the dino's start giving up space that is. Mechanical removal is a legit short-term strategy and might help give competitors a leg up too.

2¢

Other interesting more-or-less related links on my blog:

1. The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate
2. Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom
3. Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication

(Also cross-posted in the old Dino thread!)

Closer to the bottom. Hope that helps. @maroun.c for future defence

 

[N2950H]

The tank seemed to cycle pretty quick with the Turbo Start and amonium chloride. Within about 8 days, according to the Turbo Start directions, I was cycled. I started with 100% live rock and sand. I've got a clown now and a few zoas plus a pretty healthy sized cuc. Don't plan to add anything else for a while, just want to let the tank do its thing and wanted to know if this algae required my intervention. Thanks.

 

[sfin52]

The tank seemed to cycle pretty quick with the Turbo Start and amonium chloride. Within about 8 days, according to the Turbo Start directions, I was cycled. I started with 100% live rock and sand. I've got a clown now and a few zoas plus a pretty healthy sized cuc. Don't plan to add anything else for a while, just want to let the tank do its thing and wanted to know if this algae required my intervention. Thanks.

The link I attached as loads of information

 

[N2950H]

Thanks sfin52. Was hoping for a quick ID but I'll dig into that thread tomorrow. Appreciate the help.

 

[sfin52]

Thanks sfin52. Was hoping for a quick ID but I'll dig into that thread tomorrow. Appreciate the help.

Toward the bottom there are links to the different dino species. The rest of the info is a little more involved.

 

[N2950H]

From that link sfin52 pointed me to, I looked at photos of dinos that had been identified as ostreopsis, prorocentrum, amphidinium, and coolia. Nothing I saw there looks quite like what I have. I saw a lot of threads where people posted their photos and people were able to identify them pretty quickly, so I think what I learned here is that I need to take better photos.

For some reason the image I see through the eyepiece of my Amscope B120C-E1 looks quite sharp, but the image captured withe camera is nowhere near as clear. I'll try it again today with a cell phone pic through the lense.

 

[aqua_code]

This is the most telling image:

stringy vertical brown algae with a bubble attached usually means dinos.

 

[N2950H]

Thanks aqua_code. I'm fairly certain that is the case, I'm just trying to narrow it down to which type so I can figure out how to get rid of them. I don't think my microscopic images are good enough for that yet.

 

[sixty_reefer]

There is to many species of dinos identify a particular one will take some work, most times will be pointless as the treatment will be similar to most of them.

Could you post some tank parameters mainly

Ph
No3
Po4

Dinos is often connected to a parameter imbalance, once rectified the treatment is normally easy.

Is your no3 lower than your po4 by any chance?

 

[aqua_code]

I don't think you can go wrong with uv sterilizer, microbacter7, and oceanmagik. I'm also fighting dinos and that combination overpowers them in the algae wars. Some threads here use dr tims waste away gel instead of microbacter7.

 

[LoneStarReef]

For what it's worth, here is a link to my battle with Dinos. Hope it helps!

My experience with dinoflagellates

Well, the battle is almost over. It has been an exhausting month or so and I wanted to write down my experiences so others might learn. What I had learned early on was to utilize a multi faceted approach. I realize our tanks are different but hopefully this will help: 1) Balanced NO3 and PO4. I...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[N2950H]

I haven't had a chance to check parameters today, but I did get a better photo and a video with my cell phone...still don't know why the camera on my $300 microscope is so awful. This kind of looks like ostreopsis to me? Can anyone confirm?

 

[N2950H]

For what it's worth, here is a link to my battle with Dinos. Hope it helps!

My experience with dinoflagellates

Well, the battle is almost over. It has been an exhausting month or so and I wanted to write down my experiences so others might learn. What I had learned early on was to utilize a multi faceted approach. I realize our tanks are different but hopefully this will help: 1) Balanced NO3 and PO4. I...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks for sharing your experience, some good info there.

 

[N2950H]

There is to many species of dinos identify a particular one will take some work, most times will be pointless as the treatment will be similar to most of them.

I don't think identifying which variant I have would be pointless, and mcarroll's Dino sticky does say you should try to determine which one you're dealing with. Some are harder to get rid of than others so I just want to know what I'm up against.

Could you post some tank parameters mainly

Ph
No3
Po4

Dinos is often connected to a parameter imbalance, once rectified the treatment is normally easy.

Is your no3 lower than your po4 by any chance?

I suspect you are right, but again life got in the way last night and was unable. I'll make a point of checking parameters today. Before the outbreak, I was hovering right around:

pH 8.0
N03 0
N04 0.1

 

[sixty_reefer]

I don't think identifying which variant I have would be pointless, and mcarroll's Dino sticky does say you should try to determine which one you're dealing with. Some are harder to get rid of than others so I just want to know what I'm up against.

In most cases it works well by just bringing no3 back to 1. Definitely worth a try


I suspect you are right, but again life got in the way last night and was unable. I'll make a point of checking parameters today. Before the outbreak, I was hovering right around:

pH 8.0
N03 0
N04 0.1