OneInchPunch
Community Member
I put together some videos of me hand feeding my peacock mantis shrimp Bruce. I think it shows they are not the mindless killing machines some people think they are, let me know what you think.
Hand Feeding My Peacock Mantis Shrimp
- Thread starter OneInchPunch
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I'm to scared to watch you handling that mindless killing machine.
I hope it is smarter than our Prime Minister, as you'll probably be ok in that case.
I hope it is smarter than our Prime Minister, as you'll probably be ok in that case.
Stomatopods17
Active Member
I hope no one is to take this as a promotion and try it themselves. Their brains cannot process the difference between a hand and food, they're hard wired off scent and certain visual queues beyond our understanding. They can't 'learn' their owners hand, its physically and mentally not possible for them and they've failed every, single, test that would attempt to reveal their memory span/iq. Their behavior swings very suddenly either during pre-molt, or even a complete shift in personality never being the same after a molt. We've had specimens go from more calm individuals, to permanent threat postures, back to calm after another molt, there's no explanation other then they may 'forget' or mentally reset after molts, or that the age of the individual alters their personality.
If you have food scent on your hand, it can approach it the same way it approaches fish as a smasher, stabbing and getting lodged. You're actually safer attempting to pet it, than feed it as its reaction would only be a warning hit rather than an attack.
This is how worse case scenario medical accidents happen that give them the demonized rep in the first place.
For your own safety and the animal's; smashers can infact spear and its not meant to easily dislodge being primarily for hunting fish when necessary. It takes 1 time to end up with stitches, blood in the water, and a mantis either killed or injured to be removed.
I agree they're demonized more than they should be but that's still not ruling out the risk entirely, a cobra that seems really nice you'd still have the same guard up as a really aggressive one.
If you have food scent on your hand, it can approach it the same way it approaches fish as a smasher, stabbing and getting lodged. You're actually safer attempting to pet it, than feed it as its reaction would only be a warning hit rather than an attack.
This is how worse case scenario medical accidents happen that give them the demonized rep in the first place.
For your own safety and the animal's; smashers can infact spear and its not meant to easily dislodge being primarily for hunting fish when necessary. It takes 1 time to end up with stitches, blood in the water, and a mantis either killed or injured to be removed.
I agree they're demonized more than they should be but that's still not ruling out the risk entirely, a cobra that seems really nice you'd still have the same guard up as a really aggressive one.
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OneInchPunch
Community Member
Honestly you make some very good points. I'm no expert and I'm always looking to learn more about these amazing critters.
I have actually stopped hand feeding recently and can confirm the short memory span, as he has quickly gone back to ignoring my hand when I'm clearing out his left overs. I do feel when I was hand feeding regularly however, that there did seem to be some memory retention as even when there should have been no 'food' scent on my hand or in the water he would shoot out immediately to investigate my hand, something he had never done previously and has stopped doing since I ceased hand feeding.
What shocked me most however from your post was the fact that a smasher can in fact spear if needed. That is something I was totally unaware of. I had seen the dactyl split like in the photo shown in a shed but had always assumed this was it spitting to allow the new dactyl to emerge. Had I known this I might not have attempted my experiment and it definitely makes me less likely to repeat it.
If possible could you point me in the direction of any information on smasher mantis using their dactyl to spear as I'd be fascinated to learn more.
I have actually stopped hand feeding recently and can confirm the short memory span, as he has quickly gone back to ignoring my hand when I'm clearing out his left overs. I do feel when I was hand feeding regularly however, that there did seem to be some memory retention as even when there should have been no 'food' scent on my hand or in the water he would shoot out immediately to investigate my hand, something he had never done previously and has stopped doing since I ceased hand feeding.
What shocked me most however from your post was the fact that a smasher can in fact spear if needed. That is something I was totally unaware of. I had seen the dactyl split like in the photo shown in a shed but had always assumed this was it spitting to allow the new dactyl to emerge. Had I known this I might not have attempted my experiment and it definitely makes me less likely to repeat it.
If possible could you point me in the direction of any information on smasher mantis using their dactyl to spear as I'd be fascinated to learn more.
Tired
2500 Club Member
Oh, that's very neat, I didn't know they could do that either.
Hand-feeding them is probably not a good idea, yeah. They're not mindless killing machines, but there's not really any reason for one to not experimentally try to kill your fingers to eat, particularly if you already smell like food. I'd stick with tongs.
Hand-feeding them is probably not a good idea, yeah. They're not mindless killing machines, but there's not really any reason for one to not experimentally try to kill your fingers to eat, particularly if you already smell like food. I'd stick with tongs.
Stomatopods17
Active Member
Fwiw Spearers can also smash too. I've been hit by L. maculata before, the smash doesn't hurt at all and its typically their warning before spearing (again, they'll get lodged in their attacker and its too much risk for the animal so they try not to lose an arm, a feeding response would skip that instinct entirely as its committing to a kill.), you definitely feel the hit and its shockingly strong but there's not really a sting to it, I could've also gotten lucky on the location, angle, and the individual was younger so ?. I would not concern glass breaks or expect them to break thick shells but they still might be able to kill a small hermit if starved of their preferences.
There's a hybrid variant (fallosquillia) that is actually a 3rd type of its own (hatchet) that does a bit of both. There's a "spike" variant too but I couldn't find anything said by Roy to describe them better and documents are very scarce.. I think they're close to Pseudosquilla from the 1 thing I managed to dig up on them or perhaps I'm misremembering and was actually a debate whether to label Pseudosquillids as spikes. So 4 types in total and maybe someday we'll know more about the spike if they even still exist as a classification.
As for how the hit from my L. maculata happened, I was rehoming it and taking it out of the burrow, I actually used containers and netting to try and scoop from under it, but it darted up, around and over the netting and container and went for my hand.
?. I would not concern glass breaks or expect them to break thick shells but they still might be able to kill a small hermit if starved of their preferences.There's a hybrid variant (fallosquillia) that is actually a 3rd type of its own (hatchet) that does a bit of both. There's a "spike" variant too but I couldn't find anything said by Roy to describe them better and documents are very scarce.. I think they're close to Pseudosquilla from the 1 thing I managed to dig up on them or perhaps I'm misremembering and was actually a debate whether to label Pseudosquillids as spikes. So 4 types in total and maybe someday we'll know more about the spike if they even still exist as a classification.
As for how the hit from my L. maculata happened, I was rehoming it and taking it out of the burrow, I actually used containers and netting to try and scoop from under it, but it darted up, around and over the netting and container and went for my hand.
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OneInchPunch
Community Member
Thanks for that. I have read on the hatchet and spike type dactyls previously and was interested to read about the 'spike' variant being a potential missing link between the smashers and spearers.
What I'm most intrigued by though is the rudimentary spear used by smashers. The only information I have managed to find thus far is a short passage on the stomatopod Wikipedia page.
"Smashers possess a much more developed club and a more rudimentary spear (which is nevertheless quite sharp and still used in fights between their own kind)"
I'm keen to learn more about this and am currently trawling academic papers but have not found anything yet to reference how and when these spears may be employed.
One thing I did come across which would seem to contradict your claim that mantis shrimp are incapable of learning and have no significant memory was an article relating to learning in stomatopods which seems to indicate they have a capability for both recognition and learning. I'll leave the reference below as it is quite an interesting article.
What I'm most intrigued by though is the rudimentary spear used by smashers. The only information I have managed to find thus far is a short passage on the stomatopod Wikipedia page.
"Smashers possess a much more developed club and a more rudimentary spear (which is nevertheless quite sharp and still used in fights between their own kind)"
I'm keen to learn more about this and am currently trawling academic papers but have not found anything yet to reference how and when these spears may be employed.
One thing I did come across which would seem to contradict your claim that mantis shrimp are incapable of learning and have no significant memory was an article relating to learning in stomatopods which seems to indicate they have a capability for both recognition and learning. I'll leave the reference below as it is quite an interesting article.
Learning in Stomatopod Crustaceans.; International Journal of Comparative Psychology, 2006, Vol.19 (3), p.297-318
Cronin, Thomas W.; Caldwell, Roy L.; Marshall, Justin
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Stomatopods17
Active Member
That was a fun read.
I couldn't find the post by roy (it would be more recent years) that would suggest they can't learn beyond their 'programming' and failed test but instead I found this gem while searching which would be right for the other topic:
forums.reefcentral.com
Definitely going to keep searching as there's no shortage of cool stuff I'm bumping into along the way. I found some interesting glass break stories too and how one literally busted out of a tank during a meeting, that event helped jump start his career cause they wanted to document it after.
Closest this I can find relating to their intelligence so far:
I couldn't find the post by roy (it would be more recent years) that would suggest they can't learn beyond their 'programming' and failed test but instead I found this gem while searching which would be right for the other topic:
Taming the Mantis
I saw a video online of a kid handling his Tiger Mantis and it was docile, and as intelligent as different species of stomatopods seem to be. I'm trying the experiment myself at the moment,after learning that some stomatopods recognize their owners, i took the opportunity to bond with my 5"...
forums.reefcentral.com
Definitely going to keep searching as there's no shortage of cool stuff I'm bumping into along the way. I found some interesting glass break stories too and how one literally busted out of a tank during a meeting, that event helped jump start his career cause they wanted to document it after.
Closest this I can find relating to their intelligence so far:
Reef Central Online Community - View Single Post - Official Proof of Stomatopod Intelligence?
Reef Central is dedicated to the marine reef aquarium hobby. Learn about reef aquarium setup and maintenance, and view coral and marine fish photos. Visit our online community and discuss and chat with hobbyists of all levels from beginner to advanced.
www.reefcentral.com
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Tired
2500 Club Member
I'm frankly a bit skeptical that mantises can't learn, as I'm unaware of any even remotely similar animal that demonstrably can't. The two main examples I have experience with are crabs and non-pest cockroaches. Mantises are also quite an intelligent animal, as invertebrates go, and it seems strange for that intelligence to not come with any learning capacity at all.
Stomatopods17
Active Member
Intelligence is a field that’s complicated to really study.
Mantis shrimp are closer to jumping spiders in the sense both have these unique traits to study their prey/predator and approach differently. Neither can solve puzzles or feel emotional attachment, the later is just off the tables for most if not all inverts.
For example on test done was with a cube and glass on only one side. Mantis shrimp actually will rotate the cube, place it on a rock, and hit the glass part rather than randomly. They actually do use their environment almost like tools. This is something that they were consistent at but whether that’s intelligence or them just know to feel out their target for weak points is the context up for debate.
It’s mainly all chemical and visual queues, they see something and it registers to them as “ this prey item is kinda fast” or “this burrow has octopus odor coming from it”. Almost all invertebrates will react based on vibrations, chemical sense (due to antenna), or visual.
I’m fascinated with how pistol shrimp and spiders can build their homes in such a planned out manner but I wouldn’t say they needed to study or learn that talent just the most successful ones carried on that trait.
Mantis shrimp are closer to jumping spiders in the sense both have these unique traits to study their prey/predator and approach differently. Neither can solve puzzles or feel emotional attachment, the later is just off the tables for most if not all inverts.
For example on test done was with a cube and glass on only one side. Mantis shrimp actually will rotate the cube, place it on a rock, and hit the glass part rather than randomly. They actually do use their environment almost like tools. This is something that they were consistent at but whether that’s intelligence or them just know to feel out their target for weak points is the context up for debate.
It’s mainly all chemical and visual queues, they see something and it registers to them as “ this prey item is kinda fast” or “this burrow has octopus odor coming from it”. Almost all invertebrates will react based on vibrations, chemical sense (due to antenna), or visual.
I’m fascinated with how pistol shrimp and spiders can build their homes in such a planned out manner but I wouldn’t say they needed to study or learn that talent just the most successful ones carried on that trait.
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Hadla
Well-Known Member
Yeah Ive been on the fence about posting here… since I’ve seen and read about multiple instances where they obviously know their people and hands… one would go and just sit on its owners hand when given the chance. I’ve never been afraid to interact but then I don’t really try to hand feed though. I’ll use reptile tongs for them
danimal1211
Active Member
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OneInchPunch
Community Member
Its very anecdotal but I do feel Bruce recognises me. If I put my face up to the tank he is straight out to say hello but if a stranger does it he's more likely to make a run for his burrow.
Quintin
Active Member
We have a mantis that arrived on some live rock and personally think they are very intelligent and interesting.
As with anything in my tank, I do a bit of research and like to read academic papers on them.
Here is one that deals with training, running mazes using pattern, colour and other recognitions against a control group.
Water was also changed during each session to remove any olfactory queues, eliminating that from the research.
Results from the paper are rather interesting, showing they do have some form of intelligence, especially when having to navigate some distance in the wild for food, using markers along the route.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
As with anything in my tank, I do a bit of research and like to read academic papers on them.
Here is one that deals with training, running mazes using pattern, colour and other recognitions against a control group.
Water was also changed during each session to remove any olfactory queues, eliminating that from the research.
Results from the paper are rather interesting, showing they do have some form of intelligence, especially when having to navigate some distance in the wild for food, using markers along the route.
Mantis shrimp identify an object by its shape rather than its color during visual recognition
Mantis shrimp commonly inhabit seafloor environments with an abundance of visual features including conspecifics, predators, prey and landmarks used for navigation. Although these animals are capable of discriminating color and polarization, it is unknown ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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OneInchPunch
Community Member
A very interesting read, thanks for posting!We have a mantis that arrived on some live rock and personally think they are very intelligent and interesting.
As with anything in my tank, I do a bit of research and like to read academic papers on them.
Here is one that deals with training, running mazes using pattern, colour and other recognitions against a control group.
Water was also changed during each session to remove any olfactory queues, eliminating that from the research.
Results from the paper are rather interesting, showing they do have some form of intelligence, especially when having to navigate some distance in the wild for food, using markers along the route.
Mantis shrimp identify an object by its shape rather than its color during visual recognition
Mantis shrimp commonly inhabit seafloor environments with an abundance of visual features including conspecifics, predators, prey and landmarks used for navigation. Although these animals are capable of discriminating color and polarization, it is unknown ...
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