Help Me Figure Out Why My SPS Keep Dying

Biokabe

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So, my SPS keep dying. Big surprise, I gave it away in the title! Anyhow, I'm trying to figure out what it is that I need to change to have this not happen. I've kept SPS successfully before, so in general I know what I need to do... but there's obviously something that's missing.

First off, the problem. The exact same pattern repeats regardless of species, placement, water change schedule, etc. I'll get the coral and place it wherever it's going to go. For about a week, it's all good. Then, small bits of skeleton will start poking through. Eventually the bare spots spread, and finally the coral loses all tissue and is left with just a skeleton. It typically starts at the tips of branches, but I've had start on the body/trunk of the corals as well.

It's a slow process - from first tissue loss to complete bare skeleton will typically take 6-8 weeks - but nothing I've tried has ever managed to stop it.

I've been battling this issue for over a year now... I'd had a very bad cyano problem a while back, and I'd thought it was related to that... but I managed to get rid of the cyano 3-4 months ago and my SPS are still doing the same thing.

So that's it for the problem, here are the details on my tank (a Red Sea Reefer 350).

First off, the water parameters:

PH: 7.9-8.2 (usually a 0.2 daily swing, and my daily highs will fluctuate between 8.1 and 8.2)
Alkalinity: 10.15 dKh
Calcium: 577
Magnesium: 1323
Nitrate: 5-10 ppm
Phosphate: .08 - 0.12 ppm
Salinity: 1.024 - 1.026

I don't dose anything right now. Haven't been dosing in 3-4 months.

For lighting, 3 Radeon XR-15 (two G4, one G5 Pro) in an Aquatic Life Hybrid T5 fixture. The third XR15 is new, just added a few weeks ago. For flow, I have a pair of Neptune WAV pumps, mounted on the rear wall of the tank.

For reference, here's a visual progression on one of the corals:

Initial introduction, late November:
First Coral.jpg


About a week later:

Actual November Coral.jpg


About a week after:
November Day Coral.jpg


Couple days later:

December Coral.jpg


What it looked like before I finally pulled it out of the tank:

Final Coral.jpg


In the final picture, you can see a stylo that's suffering from the same thing. I've seen the same pattern play out on acropora, stylophora, montipora, and psammacora.

Any ideas as to the root cause?
 
Fritz

Mical

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I'm no SPS expert but I think your alk is high and by first photo looks awful bright.(whites) Do you slowly acclimate your SPS to lights? My SPS seem to like alk between 8-9 dkh and I run Kessils at 60% color and 80% intensity (more blue than whites)
 

Variant

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Things I would consider the following:

1. Flow. Are the polyps on the SPS corals moving majority of the time 80-90%?
2. Light. Have you measured par and do you light acclimate your corals so there is no light shock (especially with LEDs)
3. Water Quality. Have you tried getting an ICP test to see if any particular parameter is way off?
4. Pests. Do you see anything on your SPS (AEFW, Red Bugs, etc.)?
5. Nutrition. Do you feed your corals directly or indirectly through robust fish feedings?
6. If all else fails, do you have any doubts that the microbiology or bacterial composition of your tank is not good? Have you tried using live rock?
 

melanotaenia

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You say you have been battling problems for over a year so I am assuming that your tank has at least one year setup with the rock you have in there, indicating your biodiversity should not be a problem. Did you use any real live rock at initial startup?

There are a few considerations.

1. You need to lower Alk and Mg; not sure how you got them that high; if it is your salt mix, switch to something more near NSW like Tropic Marin Pro.
2. Consider a PAR meter to dial in your light setup; you have a sufficient light setup for your tank but too much could be a bad thing for some species if over 600-800 PAR.
3. What did you use to beat the cyano? if chemicals were used it could have thrown off the biodiversity in the tank which could be contributing to your current problems.
4. Consider lowering phosphates to around 0.05 to be in line with your NO3 levels. Consider dosing Aminos once you start accumulating Acros to help them assimilate to your system.

As mentioned, check for pests with lights off and a blue light flashlight as well.
 
BRS

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All your parameters listed look fine to me. I think Variant gives good advice. My bets are lighting or flow if it is a slow degeneration over time like that. Also possibly something in the water (copper, etc).

On one of my tanks once I had that issue for over 2 years. "Everything" was perfect but SPS and even LPS would slowly die! Eventually I found that in the return pump chamber of the sump (where I could not really see from front of stand) there was an old extremely rusted metal hose clamp. I dont use metal in the water but sometime use above the water and somehow must have dropped one in putting it together and not realized it. I cant say for certain that was my issue, but after removing it/water changes all my problems went away.
 

ThePurple12

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Metals is another one. I stupidly added fertilizer to my sand bed (for seagrass), and after no SPS growth for several months I finally realized it was the fertilizer. I did a series of large water changes and everything is back to normal. You could also buy Cuprisorb if it's a metal problem.
 

mdb_talon

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You need to lower Alk and Mg; not sure how you got them that high; if it is your salt mix, switch to something more near NSW like Tropic Marin Pro.

A dkh of 10 is perfectly acceptable as is an MG of 1323. Countless people (including myself) run at higher levels and very easy to get that high. Countless studies have shown that calcification in many corals actually increases at levels above normal seawater. I would bet the vast majority of sucessful reef tanks have a dkh higher than 7(average dkh of surface seawater). The calcium at 577 is high, but I dont think really harmful if not causing precipitation (and I wonder about the accuracy of that test).
 
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Biokabe

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Things I would consider the following:

1. Flow. Are the polyps on the SPS corals moving majority of the time 80-90%?
2. Light. Have you measured par and do you light acclimate your corals so there is no light shock (especially with LEDs)
3. Water Quality. Have you tried getting an ICP test to see if any particular parameter is way off?
4. Pests. Do you see anything on your SPS (AEFW, Red Bugs, etc.)?
5. Nutrition. Do you feed your corals directly or indirectly through robust fish feedings?
6. If all else fails, do you have any doubts that the microbiology or bacterial composition of your tank is not good? Have you tried using live rock?

1. Hard to say these days with polyp extension being low. I know in the lower part of the tank (where I have my euphyllia corals and the like) they have fairly decent movement, but I don't know if it's 'enough' for SPS. I know that there's overall good water movement (no stagnant areas), but since the primary movement is from back -> front of the tank, and then ricochets from the front glass across the body of the tank, I don't know if the SPS corals are getting the kind of flow they like. I have a gyre I can add into the tank to get some side-to-side water movement, but I don't want to go in the opposite direction and have so much water movement that it strips the flesh

2. I have measured PAR, though I need to re-measure to account for the 3rd Radeon. I was between 225-275 PAR when I first measured; with the two Radeons, I was up at 325-350 PAR. Most of my acros have come from my LFS; they keep their SPS tanks at about 450 PAR (also under LEDs). Would light acclimation still be a concern when going between two tanks of similar brightness?

3. I have done ICP tests (most recent from mid-January). Mostly fine, though they flagged my iodine and manganese as low. There was trace copper present (5.25 ppb), but that is something I've dealt with in the past, and I don't think that trace amount is enough to cause the issues I've seen. There was also high silicon (quite high, honestly - my DI resin was likely exhausted, and I've replaced the canisters since then) but I haven't done an ICP test since replacing the canisters.

4. I haven't observed any pests, with two possible exceptions. First, I do have several species of asterina stars in the tank. I have never seen them on a living coral; they've only even gone on coral skeletons after the coral has been skeleton long enough to accumulate algae growth. I can't rule out that some of them could be the coral-devouring variety, but given their numbers, I'd think that the tank would have long since been stripped bare if they were corallivores.

Second, I did have acoel flatworms in the tank for a while; while they're not directly corallivores, I understand that they can gather on corals and block them from receiving light. I picked up an melanurus wrasse a couple months ago, though, and I haven't seen any of them in weeks.

5. I don't feed the SPS directly, but I do feed the tank decently heavy. I have an auto-feeder dispensing a variety of pellets (New Balance, Chroma Boost, Seaweed Extreme, PE Mysis) 3 times a day, and I feed frozen every other day (most LRS Reef Frenzy). For the frozen, I do a mix of broadcast feeding and target feeding on my LPS corals. I've tried a variety of amino acids and other SPS foods, but I've never had good luck with them. No added growth of anything except for algae.

6. I do have some doubts as to the microbiology. Most of the rock in my tank came from my old 55g tank, so it's all decently aged at this point (about 4 years old), but that tank got started from dry Marco rocks and bottled bacteria. I added some additional rock when I started this tank in December of last year, and I added in some KP live rock about 3-4 months ago.

A dkh of 10 is perfectly acceptable as is an MG of 1323. Countless people (including myself) run at higher levels and very easy to get that high. Countless studies have shown that calcification in many corals actually increases at levels above normal seawater. I would bet the vast majority of sucessful reef tanks have a dkh higher than 7(average dkh of surface seawater). The calcium at 577 is high, but I dont think really harmful if not causing precipitation (and I wonder about the accuracy of that test).

No calc precipitation, but the test is unfortunately accurate. I have a Trident that tests it regularly; I calibrate it every time I change reagents, and I verify its results with both ICP tests and Salifert calcium tests. It might not be exactly 577, but it's definitely within the ballpark.
 
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Biokabe

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You say you have been battling problems for over a year so I am assuming that your tank has at least one year setup with the rock you have in there, indicating your biodiversity should not be a problem. Did you use any real live rock at initial startup?

There are a few considerations.

1. You need to lower Alk and Mg; not sure how you got them that high; if it is your salt mix, switch to something more near NSW like Tropic Marin Pro.
2. Consider a PAR meter to dial in your light setup; you have a sufficient light setup for your tank but too much could be a bad thing for some species if over 600-800 PAR.
3. What did you use to beat the cyano? if chemicals were used it could have thrown off the biodiversity in the tank which could be contributing to your current problems.
4. Consider lowering phosphates to around 0.05 to be in line with your NO3 levels. Consider dosing Aminos once you start accumulating Acros to help them assimilate to your system.

As mentioned, check for pests with lights off and a blue light flashlight as well.

1. I also would like to know how the Alk got that high. Well, I know how it initially got that high (improperly calibrated Trident was underreporting my Alk, so I dosed too high, but the testing has been dialed in since then), but I don't know why it's remained that high. I discontinued dosing once I realized my Alk was high, and I haven't dosed anything in more than three months. I'm currently using Tropic Marin Pro; its Alk was down at 4.5 dKH before my last water change. It did drop my dKH to 9.8 for about half a day after I changed the water, but the dKH was back up above 10 by the next midnight test.

2. Addressed above.

3. I used Chemiclean to knock back the cyano.

4. Phosphates have been trending lower lately, so I'll continue what I've been doing to try and get them down further. They were at .35/ppm back in January.
 
Lazys Coral House

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I would start by making some changes to try some different parameters since the same problem has been going on for so long. Also having not dosed in 3 months and the levels staying the same and corals are constantly dying tells us the corals are not uptaking needed elements to grow at all. I would start by lowering your alk to between 7 and 8 and calcium to 450 or so, your other params seem fine. When you get new frags if they are coming from a different type of light thus intensity too its always safe and prudent to put them on a frag rack lower in your display and let them acclimate to your lights for a couple weeks before placing them on your rocks especially ones that are gonna be up high receiving a good amount of light. Going forward I would keep a close eye on the corals and at the slightest sign of an issue I would dip them in iodine.
 

melanotaenia

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The higher DKH and MG are a concern but should not kill the SPS.

I bet the after effects of ChemiClean is causing the problems; I have read several stories in the past several years of people using this product and seeing major bleaching events afterwards with SPS. I am not sure why it happens but it is suggested that the biodiversity in the tank is compromised from it's use, and effects more sensitive corals such as Acros.
 

Perry

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When in doubt, strip your routine and use of products down to the very basics. Fish feeding, water changes, skimming, and maybe a bag of carbon. Allow the system to work out nutrients, it will ultimately balance at some point. As time passes, you can slowly make adjustments and implement other products as needed. Keep it as simple as you can :)
 

schuby

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I've read it somewhere on here that STN from the base up could be due to lack of Iodine/iodate. I've searched to try to find the exact thread but have been unsuccessful. I'm sure it was mentioned by RHF, but can't find it now. Consider adding a bit of iodine/iodate. RHF doesn't like Lugol's.

I'll ask for myself and others. Do you run GFO? Is so, for how long and how fast do you reduce phosphate with it?

How many fish? I can find only one in your pics.
 

Variant

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1. Hard to say these days with polyp extension being low. I know in the lower part of the tank (where I have my euphyllia corals and the like) they have fairly decent movement, but I don't know if it's 'enough' for SPS. I know that there's overall good water movement (no stagnant areas), but since the primary movement is from back -> front of the tank, and then ricochets from the front glass across the body of the tank, I don't know if the SPS corals are getting the kind of flow they like. I have a gyre I can add into the tank to get some side-to-side water movement, but I don't want to go in the opposite direction and have so much water movement that it strips the flesh

2. I have measured PAR, though I need to re-measure to account for the 3rd Radeon. I was between 225-275 PAR when I first measured; with the two Radeons, I was up at 325-350 PAR. Most of my acros have come from my LFS; they keep their SPS tanks at about 450 PAR (also under LEDs). Would light acclimation still be a concern when going between two tanks of similar brightness?

3. I have done ICP tests (most recent from mid-January). Mostly fine, though they flagged my iodine and manganese as low. There was trace copper present (5.25 ppb), but that is something I've dealt with in the past, and I don't think that trace amount is enough to cause the issues I've seen. There was also high silicon (quite high, honestly - my DI resin was likely exhausted, and I've replaced the canisters since then) but I haven't done an ICP test since replacing the canisters.

4. I haven't observed any pests, with two possible exceptions. First, I do have several species of asterina stars in the tank. I have never seen them on a living coral; they've only even gone on coral skeletons after the coral has been skeleton long enough to accumulate algae growth. I can't rule out that some of them could be the coral-devouring variety, but given their numbers, I'd think that the tank would have long since been stripped bare if they were corallivores.

Second, I did have acoel flatworms in the tank for a while; while they're not directly corallivores, I understand that they can gather on corals and block them from receiving light. I picked up an melanurus wrasse a couple months ago, though, and I haven't seen any of them in weeks.

5. I don't feed the SPS directly, but I do feed the tank decently heavy. I have an auto-feeder dispensing a variety of pellets (New Balance, Chroma Boost, Seaweed Extreme, PE Mysis) 3 times a day, and I feed frozen every other day (most LRS Reef Frenzy). For the frozen, I do a mix of broadcast feeding and target feeding on my LPS corals. I've tried a variety of amino acids and other SPS foods, but I've never had good luck with them. No added growth of anything except for algae.

6. I do have some doubts as to the microbiology. Most of the rock in my tank came from my old 55g tank, so it's all decently aged at this point (about 4 years old), but that tank got started from dry Marco rocks and bottled bacteria. I added some additional rock when I started this tank in December of last year, and I added in some KP live rock about 3-4 months ago.



No calc precipitation, but the test is unfortunately accurate. I have a Trident that tests it regularly; I calibrate it every time I change reagents, and I verify its results with both ICP tests and Salifert calcium tests. It might not be exactly 577, but it's definitely within the ballpark.
Here's what I would do if I were you in this situation since it doesn't appear to be a single red flag that we can solve for. I would not discount the potential microbiology being an issue. I equate it to the idea that just because we're older doesn't mean our gut is healthier. Similarly age of rock in water doesn't necessarily mean it's good rock and that the microbiology is good. This is timely because I was watching a 2017 MACNA presentation from Joe Yaiullo last night where he noted how a sps colony would just die and there was no rhymer reason but it would regrow elsewhere in his 20,000 gallon tank. But we don't know much about what the "right" microbiology is so let's just settle on the fact that we don't know much.

So onto what I'd do in your shoes... Uninstall all your frivolous equipment like the Trident and maintenance your equipment like the skimmer by uninstalling it, cleaning it thoroughly (even taking apart the entire pump assembly). You can do this one by one over the course of 1-2 weeks. Then start to implement 20% water changes. Bring your water parameters back to the natural level of your new salt water via water changes; don't try to be mad scientist and try to change each one individually.

So where you'll end up is a full detox of your equipment and hopefully you don't find any weird rusting on any equipment. Then you'll start to go back to basics with weekly water changes. In doing these water changes, siphon our parts of your sand bed every time (maybe siphon 1/4 of your sandbed each week so after a month you would have cleaned the entire sandbed).

Now in reinstalling all your equipment, try to limit it to the bare essential. Maybe filter socks and a skimmer. No need to go gangbusters here with a ton of stuff. Use water changes to maintain parameters for a while. To set expectations, you'll probably go through a downward spiral through the first part of this process as you are doing a deep clean and disturbing your tank's biology. But sometimes a bit of disruption can be good to introduce a different equilibrium and perhaps a better one suited for SPS.

Hopefully after doing this for 2 months after the deep cleaning of equipment, you can start to add back some starter SPS like monipora digitata, stylos, and birdsnests.
 

Rmckoy

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I’ve always kept my alk between 7-7.5dkh
And have read maintaining higher alk takes a highly skilled aquarist .

Lighting ... what lighting are you using ?
Seams to be very white , start with lower placement and slowly work the way up to where you want them .

to rule out parameter swings such as alk .
test every day at the same time and see how much everything fluctuates .

the goal is to aim for stable alk , cal and mag .
Ph will fluctuate between day and night as c02 isn’t consumed as much at night .
 

((FORDTECH))

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Here's what I would do if I were you in this situation since it doesn't appear to be a single red flag that we can solve for. I would not discount the potential microbiology being an issue. I equate it to the idea that just because we're older doesn't mean our gut is healthier. Similarly age of rock in water doesn't necessarily mean it's good rock and that the microbiology is good. This is timely because I was watching a 2017 MACNA presentation from Joe Yaiullo last night where he noted how a sps colony would just die and there was no rhymer reason but it would regrow elsewhere in his 20,000 gallon tank. But we don't know much about what the "right" microbiology is so let's just settle on the fact that we don't know much.

So onto what I'd do in your shoes... Uninstall all your frivolous equipment like the Trident and maintenance your equipment like the skimmer by uninstalling it, cleaning it thoroughly (even taking apart the entire pump assembly). You can do this one by one over the course of 1-2 weeks. Then start to implement 20% water changes. Bring your water parameters back to the natural level of your new salt water via water changes; don't try to be mad scientist and try to change each one individually.

So where you'll end up is a full detox of your equipment and hopefully you don't find any weird rusting on any equipment. Then you'll start to go back to basics with weekly water changes. In doing these water changes, siphon our parts of your sand bed every time (maybe siphon 1/4 of your sandbed each week so after a month you would have cleaned the entire sandbed).

Now in reinstalling all your equipment, try to limit it to the bare essential. Maybe filter socks and a skimmer. No need to go gangbusters here with a ton of stuff. Use water changes to maintain parameters for a while. To set expectations, you'll probably go through a downward spiral through the first part of this process as you are doing a deep clean and disturbing your tank's biology. But sometimes a bit of disruption can be good to introduce a different equilibrium and perhaps a better one suited for SPS.

Hopefully after doing this for 2 months after the deep cleaning of equipment, you can start to add back some starter SPS like monipora digitata, stylos, and birdsnests.
I read your whole post and you started to talk about microbiology and possibly having lack of it but you never posted how to correct this if it is the case. What would you do to correct a lack of microbiology? Besides live rock from ocean what can be added. My tank been running 10 years now I’ve already got rid of all the pests from the original live rock and dont want to add more and have to deal with unwanted things like flat worms and other things
 

Variant

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I read your whole post and you started to talk about microbiology and possibly having lack of it but you never posted how to correct this if it is the case. What would you do to correct a lack of microbiology? Besides live rock from ocean what can be added. My tank been running 10 years now I’ve already got rid of all the pests from the original live rock and dont want to add more and have to deal with unwanted things like flat worms and other things

Super valid question and a great one, but one that I don't have the answer to. I don't think anybody in the hobby or industry has the "key" to what defines the "right" versus "wrong" composition of microbiology. Now, if I don't know and nobody knows what exactly is the "right" versus "wrong" composition, how can anyone claim that microbiology is the problem? We can't; we don't know definitively that it is the source of the issue.

But if microbiology plays an important role in our reef tanks, we shouldn't just ignore it just because we can't measure it definitively. So then back to your very practical question of what to do to correct for the "wrong" microbiology. I would go back to doing weekly water changes and implementing good husbandry as a start; no I don't have science to back this up, but it seems like a good place to start if all else fails.

I liken it to "flushing" our own bodies when we eat something terrible and our bodies and our gut reacts extremely negatively. We need to flush whatever it is our of our system instead of just keep it all in. If I ate a 12 pack of tacos from Taco Bell and my gut was about to explode and I was curled up in a fetal position, I'm sure I'd feel more relieve if I went to the restroom to relieve myself. Similarly, if the corals are not doing too well but all things look to be perfect on paper, it wouldn't hurt to force your tank to use the restroom and do some water changes.

Hope this was practical advice. I don't know it all to say what is the perfect way to solve this, but it's worth a shot :)

As an example of how some of this is reflected in Medicine... When you're ill and your illness is caused by bacteria, you're often times prescribed antibiotics (some specific but sometimes broad spectrum). These antibiotics are used to target the "bad" bacteria to allow your body to recover. However, in some cases, the use of antibiotics can have a negative side effect that eliminates some of the good bacteria in your body at the same time, causing secondary issues that follow. Follow up antibiotics are also used to hopefully help your body restore it's "bacterial balance". You see the importance of microbiomes even in Cancer Immunotherapy (https://www.upmcphysicianresources.com/news/020421-fmt).

So if I had to make an educated guess based on the limited info the OP can provide over a forum, the chemiclean may have either started or exacerbated an underlying issue, similar to how an antibiotic medication can "do its job" but also cause significant side effects. Now that doesn't mean e very tank that has ever used chemiclean runs into this problem, similar to how not all people have secondary problems with antibiotics. Our guts are all slightly different, and our tanks are as well.
 
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HB AL

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The higher DKH and MG are a concern but should not kill the SPS.

I bet the after effects of ChemiClean is causing the problems; I have read several stories in the past several years of people using this product and seeing major bleaching events afterwards with SPS. I am not sure why it happens but it is suggested that the biodiversity in the tank is compromised from it's use, and effects more sensitive corals such as Acros.
Totally forgot you mentioned using chemiclean, melanotaenia is most likely spot on with the chemiclean being a contributing factor especially when it entails acros.
 
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