HELP ULTRA HI PH

[David S]

Hi everyone,

Hope everything is OK by you.
Several days ago I started getting very Hi PH in my Reef tank to a level never before attained in my years of reefing and I need advice on what may be causing it and how to remedy it.
It started a few days ago, when my Apex notified me that my PH was @ 8.55.
I thought that probe might need calibrating.
It did, but not in the way I expected. Upon calibration my PH was 8.75.
I took out my Pinpoint monitor and after calibrating the probe, the results were virtually an exact match for the Apex probe.
I must admit that a day or so before this I foolishly used a supersaturated solution of Kalk in my dosing container. I removed it and replaced with my normal solution of Kalk but the PH remains high, days later.
It seems to go down normally at night but well before lights go back on it starts rising and once lights go on, the PH really begins to skyrocket.
I have been adding Seltzer and that does lower the PH, but only temporarily - then it rises with a vengeance.
Fortunately, my other parameters, including ALK, have remained stable.
Any ideas on what might be causing this?
Should I continue adding Seltzer? Any harm, short to intermediate term, to doing this.

Thanks
David

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is the tank milky colored?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Limewater overdose advice from one of my articles:

What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Raise pH Whether You Want It To Or Not

Since limewater has a pH above 12 (even when a reasonable amount of vinegar is added), it causes a substantial rise in pH when added to a reef aquarium. This attribute has both positive and negative aspects. It limits the speed at which limewater can be added without raising the tank’s pH too much (discussed above). It also can be a serious problem in accidental overdosing, where the pH can rise very high. Often, this overdosing can lead to the aquarium turning white like milk as calcium carbonate precipitates throughout the water column.

In such cases of acute overdose, here is my advice:

1. If the pH is 8.5 or lower (as it often is since a precipitation event itself reduces pH even if it was much higher to start with), there is little that can or needs to be done. Just wait a few days for the white calcium carbonate to slowly disappear. A water change is not necessary, although once the water is clear, testing calcium and especially alkalinity is in order (don’t bother to test the cloudy water as it will give false high readings as these tests detect solids even though they are not truly in solution). Few aquarists suffer the loss of organisms from such events. I’ve had several such events without any apparent losses.

2. If the pH is above 8.5, some action to reduce the pH is warranted. The higher it is, the faster and greater the needed action. Since such events may happen when few tools are available to solve them (e.g., New Year's morning when few stores are open), I’ll provide a number of options, although some are better than others. In all cases, reduce the pH only to 8.5 to avoid overshooting.

The best option is to add carbon dioxide, either by bubbling the gas directly, or by adding soda water/seltzer (or blowing into a skimmer inlet if it is your only option). At least in the normal aquarium pH range, a teaspoon of soda water per gallon of tank water will lower pH by a couple of tenths of a pH unit. Overshooting with carbon dioxide, while undesirable, is less of a concern than is overshooting with any other option.

A second option is to add vinegar. Be especially careful to not overshoot pH 8.5 or so, because when bacteria begin to metabolize the acetate, the resulting CO2 will further lower the pH, and oxygen will be consumed (equation (14)). For this reason, it is especially important to maintain aeration when using vinegar in such a fashion. I’ve added vinegar to my aquarium in similar situations without difficulty, although the pH was only marginally high and I did not need to add much.

A third rung of options involves adding a mineral acid such as muriatic acid (HCl or hydrochloric acid) or sulfuric acid. I’ve added HCl to my aquarium in similar situations without difficulty. When performing such a mineral acid treatment, be very careful not to overshoot, and to monitor the pH during any acid additions. I would intervene in this fashion only if I could monitor the pH in real time, and could add the acid to a high flow area far from any organism. Diluting the acid in water (say, 20:1 or 100:1) prior to adding it to the tank is highly recommended for the safety of both the aquarist and the tank’s inhabitants (diluting vinegar, which is already dilute, isn’t necessary). One other drawback to adding a mineral acid is that it reduces the alkalinity. In such a case, the result may be elevated calcium and reduced alkalinity that will require significant correction.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi everyone,

Hope everything is OK by you.
Several days ago I started getting very Hi PH in my Reef tank to a level never before attained in my years of reefing and I need advice on what may be causing it and how to remedy it.
It started a few days ago, when my Apex notified me that my PH was @ 8.55.
I thought that probe might need calibrating.
It did, but not in the way I expected. Upon calibration my PH was 8.75.
I took out my Pinpoint monitor and after calibrating the probe, the results were virtually an exact match for the Apex probe.
I must admit that a day or so before this I foolishly used a supersaturated solution of Kalk in my dosing container. I removed it and replaced with my normal solution of Kalk but the PH remains high, days later.
It seems to go down normally at night but well before lights go back on it starts rising and once lights go on, the PH really begins to skyrocket.
I have been adding Seltzer and that does lower the PH, but only temporarily - then it rises with a vengeance.
Fortunately, my other parameters, including ALK, have remained stable.
Any ideas on what might be causing this?
Should I continue adding Seltzer? Any harm, short to intermediate term, to doing this.

Thanks
David

I'm concerned that unless the water is milky, that the fact that the pH rises rapidly after CO2 addition means it may not be really as high as you think. It wouldn't usually do that.

 

[David S]

I'm concerned that unless the water is milky, that the fact that the pH rises rapidly after CO2 addition means it may not be really as high as you think. It wouldn't usually do that.

Thanks Randy
To reply to some of your concerns:
No the tank has never looked milky. If it hadn't been for the rise in the PH I would think everything is fine as all other parameters appear normal.
Your correct concerning the 8.75 PH. It was hypothetical.
On Friday morning when my Apex indicated my PH had been 8.55 the previous day, I decided to calibrate the probe.
Just prior to calibration, the PH was 8.14 which was a typical nighttime drop from the previous day high.
After calibration, however, the PH was 8.34 so I assumed the PH was considerably higher at its peak.
Between this reading and the time it took to validate with the Pinpoint monitor's probe, the Apex probe reading jumped to 8.44 after calibrating the Pinpoint probe the result was 8.45.
I should point out that yesterday I did observe an 8.67 reading as per the Apex probe although I did not think to use the Pinpoint probe/monitor for confirmation.
Currently the Apex is reading 8.51 and that is despite several doses of Seltzer during the day, which dropped the PH approximately 0.2 during the day.
As we're approaching the tank' peak - usually between 7 - 7:30 PM. I will compare Apex and Pinpoint results

 

[David S]

Thanks Randy
To reply to some of your concerns:
No the tank has never looked milky. If it hadn't been for the rise in the PH I would think everything is fine as all other parameters appear normal.
Your correct concerning the 8.75 PH. It was hypothetical.
On Friday morning when my Apex indicated my PH had been 8.55 the previous day, I decided to calibrate the probe.
Just prior to calibration, the PH was 8.14 which was a typical nighttime drop from the previous day high.
After calibration, however, the PH was 8.34 so I assumed the PH was considerably higher at its peak.
Between this reading and the time it took to validate with the Pinpoint monitor's probe, the Apex probe reading jumped to 8.44 after calibrating the Pinpoint probe the result was 8.45.
I should point out that yesterday I did observe an 8.67 reading as per the Apex probe although I did not think to use the Pinpoint probe/monitor for confirmation.
Currently the Apex is reading 8.51 and that is despite several doses of Seltzer during the day, which dropped the PH approximately 0.2 during the day.
As we're approaching the tank' peak - usually between 7 - 7:30 PM. I will compare Apex and Pinpoint results

O.K. so at about 6:50 PM the PH seemed to peak at 8.52 as per the Apex probe.
A few minutes prior, I attached the Pinpoint and after a few minutes of the Pinpoint adjusting, it vacillated between 8.49 and 8.50.
I had some chores to do and when I came back 20 minutes later the Apex probe gave a reading of 8.51( which it will probably remain at for an hour or two before it makes its nightly decline).
Interestingly the Pinpoint settled at the same PH of 8.51.
There is little doubt in my mind, therefore that I would have gotten confirmation from the Pinpoint at 8.67.
I will continue to add Seltzer as needed.
BTW I didn't mention that I have also been adding Vinegar to my Kalk (45 ml per gallon)

 

[David S]

I'm concerned that unless the water is milky, that the fact that the pH rises rapidly after CO2 addition means it may not be really as high as you think. It wouldn't usually do that.

Randy
Did not initially pick up on your comment about the calibration fluids.
Definitely could be an issue. I will order fresh calibration fluids.
Having said that my guess is there is more to it.
What bothers me is the degree to which the PH has been rising during the day.
Far greater than years of experience

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Those pH values peaking in the low 8.5's do not warrant any action to change it, IMO. Mine ran pH 8.35 to 8.55 for years and I thought it fine. It didn't lower until I got new storm windows. lol

 

[David S]

Those pH values peaking in the low 8.5's do not warrant any action to change it, IMO. Mine ran pH 8.35 to 8.55 for years and I thought it fine. It didn't lower until I got new storm windows. lol

I ordered a couple of 7.01 and 10.01 Hanna packets, as well as, my usual Milwaukee bottled solutions, last night.
Since my readings are in doubt, I will be very conservative as far as any additions to lower PH, particularly since all other parameters are spot on - assuming the test kits are accurate, lol.
Moreover all inhabitants appear to be doing well.
BTW IT is currently 1:15PM and the PH is 8.35.
Normally, at this time of day the PH would be anywhere between 8.0 and 8.2 and it would peak somewhere in the 8.25 - 8.45 range. Yet I'm fairly certain that sans any intervention on my part, the apparent PH reading will climb to 8.7+.
My question is; if the probe has been significantly miscalibrated to the upside would that exaggerate further readings?

 

[David S]

Those pH values peaking in the low 8.5's do not warrant any action to change it, IMO. Mine ran pH 8.35 to 8.55 for years and I thought it fine. It didn't lower until I got new storm windows. lol

Randy
Totally forgot that I bought an API Hi range PH test kit a while back when one of my probes went on the fritz.
It gave an indication that my PH is in the 8.2 (slightly less) range.
ASSUMING the test is accurate it would be an indication that my reagents are off.
Waiting on the fresh reagents for final determination

 

[David S]

Randy
Totally forgot that I bought an API Hi range PH test kit a while back when one of my probes went on the fritz.
It gave an indication that my PH is in the 8.2 (slightly less) range.
ASSUMING the test is accurate it would be an indication that my reagents are off.
Waiting on the fresh reagents for final determination

Randy
First off a big thank you for diagnosing the problem of my "ultra" high PH as due to test error - which undoubtedly it was.
I would like to enumerate some lessons learned from this experience:
To begin with when I saw my probe indicated a PH of 8.55, I simply felt it needed calibrating.
Not unusual since it had not been calibrated since its initial calibration, some 4 months prior.
In past instances, going back years, I would need to calibrate my PH probe every 10 -12 weeks.
Furthermore, historically I would calibrate when my PH would start drifting upward (drifting significantly downward, rarely, if ever, happened). So although a reading of 8.55 was no cause for alarm, I felt it was an indication that my probe needed adjusting.
Similarly, for years, I've been using the same brand of bottled PH buffer solution (4.01, 7.01,10.01) from the same company, and this proved reliable.
This ostensible reliability led me to the erroneous conclusion that the 8.75 calibrated reading was valid.
(The ironic thing was that the readings were correct from the beginning).
It never occurred to me, until you suggested, that there may be a problem with my reagents.
I then looked at the expiration date on the reagents and found that all of them expired; anywhere from 2 months to 3 years ago.
I originally calibrated with a 7.01 solution which expired on 2/2020 and a 10.01 solution which expired 3 years ago!
I did a subsequent calibration, substituting the 4.01 solution, which was 6 months expired, for the 10.01solution and my probe has adjusted to where the PH was prior to my fiddling.
So here are some lessons to be learned:
1. Concerning bottled reagents - The advantage is it's cheaper than buying individual packets.
Going the bottle route is fine and good if you calibrate often. But if, like me, you only calibrate a few times a year, it is simply not worth the cheaper price for the bottled stuff.
When you think about the inhabitants in your tank it's foolish to think about saving a few bucks on something that could prove critical to their survival. The (unopened) packets will be more reliable.
To that end, I already ordered and will be receiving, a set of 7.01 and 10.01 packets, later today.
2. Go with a reliable seller -
Again, I was deluded into paying a cheaper price never realizing that this particular vendor (not a fish/reef hobbyist) was selling reagents that was near or beyond expiration.
Better to pay a little more from the BRS's Saltwateraquarium, Premium Aquatics etc. You will get fresh reagents from them.
3. Be mindful of expiration on liquid reagents -
It's a fact that there are certain items that can be used well past expiration; liquid reagents ain't one of em.
Once they're opened, the clock is running. Check expiration dates.
The heretofore mentioned sellers have solutions (buffers/test kits) with good (usually 2 years or more) expiration dates.
4. Here is the tough one:
Always consider the consequences of your actions.
In my particular case I dosed a supersaturated solution of Kalkwasser which undoubtedly precipitated the problem.
I figured, no big deal as the excess will simply fall to the bottom of the dosing container and not influence the results.
I was wrong. I am thankful, however, that the Alkalinity in my tank somehow remained stable and my reef inhabitants appear healthy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome and thanks for the write up!

 

[David S]

You're welcome and thanks for the write up!

As a quick follow up, I received the Hanna packets this afternoon.
I calibrated using one 7.01 and one 10.01 packet @ 2:30 PM.
At that time, the probe indicated a PH of 8.35.
Upon settling, after the calibration, the PH was 8.23.
Perhaps, more significantly, the acceleration of the PH to the upside seems to have moderated.
It is now 5:21 PM and the PH is currently 8.33.
The increase of 0.10 over a 3 hour period, at that time of day, is typical for my system.
BTW the expiration on the ten 7.01 solutions is 2024 while the 10.01's is only 12/2021.