I Can’t Seem to Keep Coral Alive

[jadwv2210]

So a bit of insight into my situation, I started my tank about two years ago. It’s a 40 gallon breeder with a Trigger Ruby 30 sump. I have three fish, two clowns and a Midas blenny who have been in the tank for all two years and have always done great. My equipment consists of an EcoTech MP10 and two Radion XR15 gen 4 pros with diffusers. I have a Reef Octopus skimmer I cant remember which model but it’s one of the newer internal pump models. I don’t use filter socks, I do run carbon about once every two months. I have used PhosBan in the past a couple of times for a few weeks. I use Red Sea coral pro salt.

Over the years I’ve tried to keep many moderate and easy to keep corals. Leathers, euphyllia, echinata, blastos, some montis, and a couple acros. Over time they all die. Some slowly and some quickly. I always acclimate them at the bottom of the sand bed for a couple of weeks and slowly move them to where they will stay in the rocks. Sometimes they don’t even last long enough to be moved. I’ve always dipped the corals in Coral RX.

My water parameters are as followed;

Salinity: 35ppt with a calibrated refractometer
Alk:8.5-9dKh with Hanna Checker and dosing BRS two part by hand
Cal: 490 right now with Hanna due to slight overdose with BRS two part
Mag:1370 with salifert
Nitrate: 3-5 with nyos kit
Phosphate:0 with Hanna (see triton results for more info)

I’ve also had my water tested by triton recently to see what I’m missing. Most things seem great. I’m low on iodine and high on silicon though. I don’t know if maybe this is my issue. I do use my own RO/DI system for fresh water. You can see the results here: https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/54109/

Over the years I’ve tried a few different lights as I thought maybe that was my issue. I originally had Reef Breeders LEDs but couldn’t get coral to grow with them. So after I lost everything I bought a Giessemann T5 fixture since it was just plug and play. Same results, so I went back to LED with the Radions since I prefer that look and the new Coral Lab makes it easy to pick a spectrum.

I’m out of ideas at this point. Hopefully someone here can help me figure this out.

 

[Greybeard]

Hm. Something is hiding from you.

ICP results look good... better than mine

Parameters you've listed also look good... Recommending that you make sure your test kit reagents are not old is easy, but that doesn't seem like it'd be the problem here.

Radions are certainly capable of supporting coral life. Might recommend purchasing or borrowing a PAR meter... it'd be easier to over light and burn things out than under light with your setup. If you measure it, then you'll know for certain.

Stability is key... corals can live in a fairly wide range of conditions, but they can't handle rapid change. Tank up for 2 years, gone through three completely different lighting solutions in that time, and maybe played with the LED coloration and intensity some even beyond that... Try and limit major changes to the environment, as much as possible.

2pt overdose... I'd like to hear more about that one. Hey, not being judgmental, we've all done it, but it is the only negative (other than coral deaths!) you mentioned.

How are you dosing? Frequency, quantity... If you don't have any corals, _why_ are you dosing... if there's nothing in there to consume the Calc/Alk/Mag, it shouldn't drop much.

Water changes? Do you do 'em? How much, and how often? Match TEMP (that's the most important, IMHO), salinity, pH...

Speaking of pH, you didn't mention it. Do you test? What's it run? Should test mid-day, and again shortly before lights come on in the morning, to see the daily pH swing. A pH monitor is an excellent addition, if it's not outside your budget. Really gives you some insight into daily swings.

Are you growing coraline algae? To me, it's a good indicator of the overall heath of a system.

You also didn't mention temp. I've seen miscalibrated thermometers and heaters with a huge variable from on to off that can cause problems like this.

 

[Sagecritter4life]

So a bit of insight into my situation, I started my tank about two years ago. It’s a 40 gallon breeder with a Trigger Ruby 30 sump. I have three fish, two clowns and a Midas blenny who have been in the tank for all two years and have always done great. My equipment consists of an EcoTech MP10 and two Radion XR15 gen 4 pros with diffusers. I have a Reef Octopus skimmer I cant remember which model but it’s one of the newer internal pump models. I don’t use filter socks, I do run carbon about once every two months. I have used PhosBan in the past a couple of times for a few weeks. I use Red Sea coral pro salt.

Over the years I’ve tried to keep many moderate and easy to keep corals. Leathers, euphyllia, echinata, blastos, some montis, and a couple acros. Over time they all die. Some slowly and some quickly. I always acclimate them at the bottom of the sand bed for a couple of weeks and slowly move them to where they will stay in the rocks. Sometimes they don’t even last long enough to be moved. I’ve always dipped the corals in Coral RX.

My water parameters are as followed;

Salinity: 35ppt with a calibrated refractometer
Alk:8.5-9dKh with Hanna Checker and dosing BRS two part by hand
Cal: 490 right now with Hanna due to slight overdose with BRS two part
Mag:1370 with salifert
Nitrate: 3-5 with nyos kit
Phosphate:0 with Hanna (see triton results for more info)

I’ve also had my water tested by triton recently to see what I’m missing. Most things seem great. I’m low on iodine and high on silicon though. I don’t know if maybe this is my issue. I do use my own RO/DI system for fresh water. You can see the results here: https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/54109/

Over the years I’ve tried a few different lights as I thought maybe that was my issue. I originally had Reef Breeders LEDs but couldn’t get coral to grow with them. So after I lost everything I bought a Giessemann T5 fixture since it was just plug and play. Same results, so I went back to LED with the Radions since I prefer that look and the new Coral Lab makes it easy to pick a spectrum.

I’m out of ideas at this point. Hopefully someone here can help me figure this out.

I'm more less a newbie myself so take this with a grain of salt (two tanks been up 15 months) and probly allready heard this input but when I stopped chasing zero on po4 my corals started doing tons better...I had N03 but no PO4 and believe tank was out of balance.

I now try to run .03 to .07 with my Mi 412 Yes I have some algae now but my frags quit dying within a month of going into the tank [emoji16] chuckle..and zoas almost growing too fast lol.

I had starved my system of po4 with GFO to the point that even with liquid dosing (neophos) in large steady amounts nightly trying to read some it took a week to even register above 0.0 finally and have not run any phos remover since.

Took a month of dosing po4 nightly and now only need to dose once a week or two to mantain that level and corals look better than ever [emoji106]

I only have one pair clowns so light bioload though so may not apply to your situation...good luck and happy reefing

 

[jadwv2210]

Hm. Something is hiding from you.

ICP results look good... better than mine [emoji4]

Parameters you've listed also look good... Recommending that you make sure your test kit reagents are not old is easy, but that doesn't seem like it'd be the problem here.

Radions are certainly capable of supporting coral life. Might recommend purchasing or borrowing a PAR meter... it'd be easier to over light and burn things out than under light with your setup. If you measure it, then you'll know for certain.

Stability is key... corals can live in a fairly wide range of conditions, but they can't handle rapid change. Tank up for 2 years, gone through three completely different lighting solutions in that time, and maybe played with the LED coloration and intensity some even beyond that... Try and limit major changes to the environment, as much as possible.

2pt overdose... I'd like to hear more about that one. Hey, not being judgmental, we've all done it, but it is the only negative (other than coral deaths!) you mentioned.

How are you dosing? Frequency, quantity... If you don't have any corals, _why_ are you dosing... if there's nothing in there to consume the Calc/Alk/Mag, it shouldn't drop much.

Water changes? Do you do 'em? How much, and how often? Match TEMP (that's the most important, IMHO), salinity, pH...

Speaking of pH, you didn't mention it. Do you test? What's it run? Should test mid-day, and again shortly before lights come on in the morning, to see the daily pH swing. A pH monitor is an excellent addition, if it's not outside your budget. Really gives you some insight into daily swings.

Are you growing coraline algae? To me, it's a good indicator of the overall heath of a system.

You also didn't mention temp. I've seen miscalibrated thermometers and heaters with a huge variable from on to off that can cause problems like this.

Sorry I forgot to mention a couple of things, I didn’t want to turn my OP into a book haha.

Most of my test kits are brand new. I used the Red Sea kits before I changed to Hanna thinking maybe they’d be more accurate but m results were the same.

As far as stability I always waited until I lost all of my corals before making a switch in lighting.

I used to do water changed, but after reading that it may be better to have some nitrates and phosphates I stopped. My nitrates have been stable at 3-5 ppm since then. This is also why I started dosing since I wasn’t doing water changed I would slowly drop in Cal and Alk.

As far as the overdose goes, before I got my last batch of corals I tested the water at 408ppm cal with my Hanna. So I used the BRS calculator to dose up to 420 ppm. Not sure what happened as I followed the directions closely, but I ended at 500ppm cal. I read some threads online saying it should be fine so I just left it since everything else is fine. The only thing I’ve reall added since then is a little bit of Alk solution to keep it stable.

PH I do test using my apex and I’ve verified it with a Red Sea kit. Throughout the day it swings from a low of 8.1 to a high of 8.3.

Temp I actually recently found to be low before my last batch of coral. I bought a NIST validated thermometer and tested the water at 74 degrees so I recalibrated my apex probe to 78 and it has been stable there since then. I verified this with a couple of cheaper household thermometers all within a degree or two.

All of this was before adding my last shipment of coral which pretty much all died within two weeks. I’ve made no changes to the tank since adding the corals.

Thanks for your reply. [emoji16]

Oh an no coralline algae. I’ve never been able to get it started which was always a huge red flag which I couldn’t figure out either.

 

[Greybeard]

Ok... so with the Apex, we can eliminate pH and Temp swings... even if they're not calibrated properly (not saying they're not, but even if...), you'll still see large swings over time.

I'd probably recommend you stop dosing, and start doing water changes. I don't care what ICP says... if you're loosing every coral, fast, there's SOMETHING wrong with water quality. In fact, I might suggest a couple large (40-50%) water changes over the course of a week, and then continued water changes at a more normal rate... 20% every other week, or something like that.

Might be time to look outside the box. You got a maid that cleans the tank with Windex every week? A spouse that goes nuts with the febreeze or air freshener? A deteriorating ceiling that's dropping popcorn into the tank? Cat that's going fishing with dirty paws?

Someone reseal your tank or install a sump baffle with silicone containing anti mildew components? Spray paint some plumbing with something that's breaking down? Use limestone from the local creek as decoration? Sand dug up from a contaminated beach?

Rest assured, there is SOMETHING going on here.

 

[pharazon]

That’s a tough one, and I can totally understand how frustrated and discouraged you might be. What I can tell you is that there are so many helpful people here, and every one of them wants to see you succeed. Hang in there, and I bet the good folks here can help you figure it out and get you on the right track.

So everything looks good number wise. Here’s some things that are most likely not an issue, but since the parameters don’t give an easy answer, may be worth considering.

Lighting: what intensity do you run them at? I know you said you start your corals on the sand bed to acclimate, but if you’re running the lights on high intensity to start, that could be causing an issue. Corals will deteriorate much faster from over exposure than under.

The dip: you mentioned that all of your corals have been dipped in CoralRX. I don’t use it, personally. I have seen a plethora of good reviews on it, but I’ve also read that it’s very harsh stuff. Does it expire, could it be a bad batch? Is it possible you mixed up the measurements and the dip you mix up is too concentrated? Have you ever added a coral without dipping?

I think this would be pretty easy to rule out with a couple different options.

A. Try a different dip that’s known to be less harsh. Seachem Reef Dip, Lugols, or even Bayer which is regarded as being almost ideal.

B. Try adding a new piece without dipping it. Still inspect it and blast it in some tank water to displace what hitchhikers you can. Transfer it to a new plug or brush the plug aggressively with a toothbrush. This is generally considered a no-go amongst most enthusiasts, but it doesn’t seem like you have much to lose. If the coral has pests and dies anyway, the pests will eventually die too. Purchasing frags from a dealer with a reputation for clean, pest free frags will certainly increase your chances of success. I believe WWC and BattleCorals are both known for this.

Is possible a pest was introduced at some point and you haven’t seen it? What’s the longest amount of time the tank has gone without corals in it?

Good luck! I look forward to seeing you conquering this mystery reef gremlin.

 

[jadwv2210]

Ok... so with the Apex, we can eliminate pH and Temp swings... even if they're not calibrated properly (not saying they're not, but even if...), you'll still see large swings over time.

I'd probably recommend you stop dosing, and start doing water changes. I don't care what ICP says... if you're loosing every coral, fast, there's SOMETHING wrong with water quality. In fact, I might suggest a couple large (40-50%) water changes over the course of a week, and then continued water changes at a more normal rate... 20% every other week, or something like that.

Might be time to look outside the box. You got a maid that cleans the tank with Windex every week? A spouse that goes nuts with the febreeze or air freshener? A deteriorating ceiling that's dropping popcorn into the tank? Cat that's going fishing with dirty paws?

Someone reseal your tank or install a sump baffle with silicone containing anti mildew components? Spray paint some plumbing with something that's breaking down? Use limestone from the local creek as decoration? Sand dug up from a contaminated beach?

Rest assured, there is SOMETHING going on here.

I agree with the water changes. Will probably end up dropping my nutrients down but I don’t think that’s the worst of my issues. No one cleans around the tank but me luckily. The air freshener bit could definitely be plausible. I’ve complained about it before but you know how that goes.

That’s about all I can think of for now. No other pets or anything in the house. I might check for stray voltage in the tank. I’ve done it before and found nothing but a second check never hurt.

I used to do 5 gallon changes every two weeks. My nitrates and phosphates were always 0 when I did this so I stopped. I was still losing coral even then though.

 

[pharazon]

Ok... so with the Apex, we can eliminate pH and Temp swings... even if they're not calibrated properly (not saying they're not, but even if...), you'll still see large swings over time.

I'd probably recommend you stop dosing, and start doing water changes. I don't care what ICP says... if you're loosing every coral, fast, there's SOMETHING wrong with water quality. In fact, I might suggest a couple large (40-50%) water changes over the course of a week, and then continued water changes at a more normal rate... 20% every other week, or something like that.

Might be time to look outside the box. You got a maid that cleans the tank with Windex every week? A spouse that goes nuts with the febreeze or air freshener? A deteriorating ceiling that's dropping popcorn into the tank? Cat that's going fishing with dirty paws?

Someone reseal your tank or install a sump baffle with silicone containing anti mildew components? Spray paint some plumbing with something that's breaking down? Use limestone from the local creek as decoration? Sand dug up from a contaminated beach?

Rest assured, there is SOMETHING going on here.

Yes, this is what I’m talking about - the kind of out of the box thinking that’s going to help you figure this out. Rest assured OP, you’re in the right place!

 

[jadwv2210]

That’s a tough one, and I can totally understand how frustrated and discouraged you might be. What I can tell you is that there are so many helpful people here, and every one of them wants to see you succeed. Hang in there, and I bet the good folks here can help you figure it out and get you on the right track.

So everything looks good number wise. Here’s some things that are most likely not an issue, but since the parameters don’t give an easy answer, may be worth considering.

Lighting: what intensity do you run them at? I know you said you start your corals on the sand bed to acclimate, but if you’re running the lights on high intensity to start, that could be causing an issue. Corals will deteriorate much faster from over exposure than under.

The dip: you mentioned that all of your corals have been dipped in CoralRX. I don’t use it, personally. I have seen a plethora of good reviews on it, but I’ve also read that it’s very harsh stuff. Does it expire, could it be a bad batch? Is it possible you mixed up the measurements and the dip you mix up is too concentrated? Have you ever added a coral without dipping?

I think this would be pretty easy to rule out with a couple different options.

A. Try a different dip that’s known to be less harsh. Seachem Reef Dip, Lugols, or even Bayer which is regarded as being almost ideal.

B. Try adding a new piece without dipping it. Still inspect it and blast it in some tank water to displace what hitchhikers you can. Transfer it to a new plug or brush the plug aggressively with a toothbrush. This is generally considered a no-go amongst most enthusiasts, but it doesn’t seem like you have much to lose. If the coral has pests and dies anyway, the pests will eventually die too. Purchasing frags from a dealer with a reputation for clean, pest free frags will certainly increase your chances of success. I believe WWC and BattleCorals are both known for this.

Is possible a pest was introduced at some point and you haven’t seen it? What’s the longest amount of time the tank has gone without corals in it?

Good luck! I look forward to seeing you conquering this mystery reef gremlin.

I run the radions at 40% intensity using the AB+ Coral Lab setting for 6 hours a day. I watched the BRS spotlight on these lights and followed their recommendations when setting them up.

I have not tried adding anything without dipping. The longest my tank has gone without corals was about 7 months. I had to have surgery done and couldn’t do maintenance on the tank so it got overgrown with algae and I kind of let it go for awhile. That’s also when I used phosban for about a week. It completely cleared the algae away along with some hand removal.

 

[Bmezz]

I may have missed it but what type of corals have u been trying? Maybe try some soft easy toadstool leathers and mushrooms. Leave it at that and see how u do before going to any Stoney... how do your fish do? Aneneme?

 

[CalebWBrink2000]

The only explanation I can think of is that something is leeching into the water. Alternatively, are you buying your corals from somewhere reputable? (ie; not Petco or an atrocious LFS). Where did you source your rock/sand from? Did you buy it used off of another hobbyist?

 

[jadwv2210]

I may have missed it but what type of corals have u been trying? Maybe try some soft easy toadstool leathers and mushrooms. Leave it at that and see how u do before going to any Stoney... how do your fish do? Aneneme?

I’ve tried just about every type of coral you can think of. Leathers, blastos, euphyllia, mushrooms. They all die eventually.

The fish have been there for the whole time the tank has been running (over two years) and I’ve never had any issues with them at all.

I have had two acros total and they were always first to die.

Overall I’ve probably had over twenty frags in the tank and none of them have ever made it past two months.

I got my rock from BRS, it’s reef saver dry rock and my sand is caribsea special grade I think. I don’t remember which grade but it’s definitely carribsea.

All of my corals have come from WWC, vivid, or unique. When they arrive they always look great and I get polyp extension in a few hours every time. They all start to go eventually though. Not a knock against those vendors either I think the corals are fine when they arrive.

I did have my return pump go bad today so now I’ve had to get a replacement for it. No LFS within 60 miles so everything I have is ordered online. Luckily I have some stuff for backup.

 

[Slarti]

My tank is now about 3 1/2 years old and although I can't help with advice, I can tell you I had similar issues with everything dying slowly over time except a hammerhead which is still going almost 3 years later. I went without any corals (bar the hammer) for about a year and added some zoas about 4 months ago and they went crazy almost doubling in size in the first month. One died down a little but two others still going. The third one is back though and is again showing new growth. About a month or two ago added a morph which also looking healthy. The morph frag must have had a spec of a blasto as well because a few weeks in I noticed it growing and is now almost 1/3" big.

I changed little except normal water changes, worked on keeping algae under control and nothing more. So the point I am trying to make is just not to give up. Maybe your tank, like mine, just needed a much longer time to be coral ready...here is hoping!

 

[jadwv2210]

My tank is now about 3 1/2 years old and although I can't help with advice, I can tell you I had similar issues with everything dying slowly over time except a hammerhead which is still going almost 3 years later. I went without any corals (bar the hammer) for about a year and added some zoas about 4 months ago and they went crazy almost doubling in size in the first month. One died down a little but two others still going. The third one is back though and is again showing new growth. About a month or two ago added a morph which also looking healthy. The morph frag must have had a spec of a blasto as well because a few weeks in I noticed it growing and is now almost 1/3" big.

I changed little except normal water changes, worked on keeping algae under control and nothing more. So the point I am trying to make is just not to give up. Maybe your tank, like mine, just needed a much longer time to be coral ready...here is hoping!

Thanks I hope so too. I’m too far invested to give up now.

 

[Coronus]

May I ask how and why your dosing 2 part with no corals? They die right so does that mean no growth? I would assume. Takes alot of growth to begin consumption.
No corals, no growth. Maybe spikes due to unnecessary dosing is causing rtn or stn? Just a thought.

 

[jadwv2210]

May I ask how and why your dosing 2 part with no corals? They die right so does that mean no growth? I would assume. Takes alot of growth to begin consumption.
No corals, no growth. Maybe spikes due to unnecessary dosing is causing rtn or stn? Just a thought.

Not really dosing I guess. I went about 8 months without doing a water change after I lost my second batch of coral. Then when I was ready to get more I tested the water and had 408ppm cal so I dosed BRS two part cal solution to raise it. Somehow even though I followed the directions I ended at about 490ppm when I was going for 420. I have since added a slight amount of alk solution since receiving my third batch of coral since I have a sinularia leather that is actually growing for once and an echinata that is at least surviving. Alk was at 8.5 when I dosed back to 9.0. Trying to keep parameters as stable as possible with this batch to see what the problem might be. I never dosed before this.

 

[mike werner]

so i'm gonna throw my hat in the ring.i think our members have asked the most important questions.i do think you need to test your par on those lights just to rule that out.besides it's just a good thing to know.do away with the airfresh stuff.can't hurt anything but your nose.take a water sample to the lfs to double check salinity and other chemistry (it's free at most lfs). stop dosen the tank sense ya got nothing to dose for. major water changes are one of the cheapest fixes you can try.when I say cheap I mean it's a lot cheaper than chasing the problem trying and buying other things that may not help.it's most likely a chemistry problem no one can put a finger on so dilution may be an answer to that.it's not going to hurt anything as long as you get the salinity and temp correct before you do it if ya keep the fish in the tank during .the fish you have are easy to catch so I would get them out do a 90 to 100% water change and reacclimate them to the new water as if you just brought them home.if after all that the problem returns you may want to do a total breakdown and restart with new rock and sand.i know that's not something you even want to think about but might be necessary in the end.hope this was in some way a help.

 

[pharazon]

...I have a sinularia leather that is actually growing for once and an echinata that is at least surviving.

This is a good sign! Get these dudes growing for awhile, and once you have some solid signs of stability, try another specimen. Go slow and do a coral or two at a time. Sure it’s a little more boring that way, but at least if they don’t make it you haven’t wasted a ton of money.

, I do run carbon about once every two months.

Just thought about this. Does the timing coincide with the loss of corals? Was just thinking that MAYBE the addition of carbon irregularly causes a sudden change in light intensity as the water clears up. How much do you use and what kind? It’s probably nothing but hey, we’re trying to solve a mystery here right?

 

[kashman100]

How's your flow? 1 mp10 isn't much on a 40 breeder

 

[jadwv2210]

How's your flow? 1 mp10 isn't much on a 40 breeder

I considered this as well. I can definitely see movement in the tank but that’s not always a good indicator. I followed EcoTechs recommendations for flow and it said I needed one MP10. I’ve thought about getting a second one.

For the carbon I’m not quite sure. With this latest shipment of coral at least I know that’s not the case. I started running carbon about a week before I got the shipment and most of the frags died about 2 weeks after receiving them or sooner. I hadn’t changed the carbon since getting that shipment.

The most perplexing part about this is the speed with which the frags die. I got a hammer, monti, acro, war coral, chalice, and blasto that all died in two weeks. The only thing still living is the leather and echinata.

I saw the hermits I have in my tank picking at the corals when I put them in the tank and didn’t think anything of it at first. Then after I saw them dying I immediately put the hermits in the sump. It’s possible they’ve been eating the frags all along but from what I’ve read they usually only eat coral that’s already dying.