Is my Red Sea Reefer XL 425 safe to fill? Serious concern.

[Mike.P]

Yep, born there unfortunately, don't hold it against me. The only hacking Im into is spending too much on frags. Vso haroshava tavarish, use this site to learn as much as you can. I joined a few months (and a few $$$$) too late, kind of crazy that in this hobby you can posit a question and within a few hours have PhDs providing you w amazing insight. Happy reefing comrade...

Ditto here, also unfortunately, but here since I was seven. Almost doesn't count. I know, you all have been amazing, and I'm very glad to be a part of it.

 

[ruskimax]

@ruskimax The usual curveballs of getting back into reefing, this seems about right:

The crab was asking for it, I mean could you be any tastier????

 

[Westside Guy]

Exactly right. Especially on account of the bowing happening at two corners opposite to each other. Diagonally, at that. Not only is it torsional stress, it's shear force as well. Which a rigid piece of glass is not meant to take. I wonder if Red Sea's customer service showed my e-mails to one of their engineers, aside from a supervisor. Because I have feeling that an engineer would not have been amused.

Maybe I just need to keep email-bombing them.

Mike, I would reply to them and state exactly what you said about torsional stress and shear force. Tell them that the tank is unacceptable and you refuse to place a drop of water in it.
Also call them in Houston, Amanda usually answers the phone in the morning and hopefully you will accomplish more by speaking to her than writing. Don't call late in the afternoon as any supervisor or manufacturing person she needs to consult with may be gone for the day.
Office: 281-447-0205
Toll Free: 888-733-7329

I am very disappointed by the approach taken by your LFS. The owner should have gone to bat for you and insisted on a replacement and you shouldn't have to deal with Red Sea.

As he is only open 1 month he doesn't know the business yet and most likely let his distributer make the decision and didn't fight for you. No matter how young or inexperienced he needs to understand that the customer comes first in a clear cut situation like this.

 

[Mariette]

Yup. Looks like you’re going about it all the right way. I wouldn’t take the risk either. Keep all records. It’s been a rough start returning but welcome back to the hobby

 

[MnFish1]

So a couple questions:

1. Did you buy the tank from your LFS - or did the LFS just order the tank from RedSea - and they directly shipped it to you. If this is how it was done - your LFS might be right - Red Sea is the final decision maker. That said - it seems to me like the LFS should be barking hard at RedSea to make this good.
2. Did you inspect the tank before the shipper left - check the level etc, view it outside the crate? When I had my RedSea tank delivered on the shipping bill that I had to sign it said that Once I accept the tank its mine so before I signed (ie if there was a crack I would be responsible)- I opened the crate (the driver actually helped) - and checked as much as able the level, glass etc. He actually helped carry the tank into the house. I know this won't help you necessarily - but for others reading - be careful about checking the tank before you let the shipper leave - because you can refuse any shipment - they need to take it back.
3. I would ask to speak to the supervisor directly, explain your situation with your other tank (the break) explain your nervousness - (justified) - and get it from the horses mouth (ie the supervisor) that they will be responsible if the tank has problems (if they absolutely refuse to accept it back).
4. If that doesn't work - you can try to stop payment on your credit card, or sue RedSea or whatever - but realize if you complain to the credit card company and they believe REdSea is correct that its 'ok' - you won't get a refund (normally) - but the card may go to bat for you a bit.

Hope this helps - good luck...

 

[Westside Guy]

So a couple questions:

1. Did you buy the tank from your LFS - or did the LFS just order the tank from RedSea - and they directly shipped it to you. If this is how it was done - your LFS might be right - Red Sea is the final decision maker. That said - it seems to me like the LFS should be barking hard at RedSea to make this good.
2. Did you inspect the tank before the shipper left - check the level etc, view it outside the crate? When I had my RedSea tank delivered on the shipping bill that I had to sign it said that Once I accept the tank its mine so before I signed (ie if there was a crack I would be responsible)- I opened the crate (the driver actually helped) - and checked as much as able the level, glass etc. He actually helped carry the tank into the house. I know this won't help you necessarily - but for others reading - be careful about checking the tank before you let the shipper leave - because you can refuse any shipment - they need to take it back.
3. I would ask to speak to the supervisor directly, explain your situation with your other tank (the break) explain your nervousness - (justified) - and get it from the horses mouth (ie the supervisor) that they will be responsible if the tank has problems (if they absolutely refuse to accept it back).
4. If that doesn't work - you can try to stop payment on your credit card, or sue RedSea or whatever - but realize if you complain to the credit card company and they believe REdSea is correct that its 'ok' - you won't get a refund (normally) - but the card may go to bat for you a bit.

Hope this helps - good luck...

1) Mike has mentioned a distributer being involved in the ordering process. Every one of the LFS in my area (there are many) do not stock tanks but get them through their regional distributer not directly from Red Sea.

2) Whether the purchaser is assembling the tank and cabinet or the LFS does it you need a considerable amount of time and I seriously doubt that any trucker will wait hours for you to give your blessing before you discover an issue like this. This is not a highly visible defect like if you were remove the tank from it's crate and see broken glass or visible damage to a cabinet.

3) I agree that Mike should call and speak to Red Sea but his past experiences with the other tank is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand and should not be mentioned. There is only one issue here and even if Red Sea said they would be responsible would you want to clean up the mess if the glass gives way and he has 88 gallons of water from the DT all over the floor? Therefore taking the approach that Red Sea is responsible is not an acceptable approach.

4) He paid cash (I made this same mistake about a credit card in an earlier post) so now he really needs to have his LFS go to bat for him or he has to deal directly with Red Sea in Houston or their regional rep (not the distributer). The LFS I deal with has experienced staff and would have demanded an exchange. I know for a fact they have done this in the past with both Red Sea and Waterbox for issues like this.

 

[Matthew Frost]

Mike,

I was thinking about this last night. There really are only two ways that rank could be that far out and you can check for both of them. One, if it was fixtured incorrectly when it was siliconed up. If this was the case it would be obvious because the seams wouldn't be uniform around the tank. Second, if one of the panels wasn't square and they forced it into alignment when they fixtured it for silicone. You can check that by measuring all of the panels corner to corner and making sure the measurements are equal. Bottom right corner to upper left corner and bottom left corner to upper right corner. All five panels of the tank should be checked. I would bet one of these two things is the problem and the silver bullet you need to get a replacement from Red Sea.

 

[MnFish1]

1) Mike has mentioned a distributer being involved in the ordering process. Every one of the LFS in my area (there are many) do not stock tanks but get them through their regional distributer not directly from Red Sea.

2) Whether the purchaser is assembling the tank and cabinet or the LFS does it you need a considerable amount of time and I seriously doubt that any trucker will wait hours for you to give your blessing before you discover an issue like this. This is not a highly visible defect like if you were remove the tank from it's crate and see broken glass or visible damage to a cabinet.

3) I agree that Mike should call and speak to Red Sea but his past experiences with the other tank is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand and should not be mentioned. There is only one issue here and even if Red Sea said they would be responsible would you want to clean up the mess if the glass gives way and he has 88 gallons of water from the DT all over the floor? Therefore taking the approach that Red Sea is responsible is not an acceptable approach.

4) He paid cash (I made this same mistake about a credit card in an earlier post) so now he really needs to have his LFS go to bat for him or he has to deal directly with Red Sea in Houston or their regional rep (not the distributer). The LFS I deal with has experienced staff and would have demanded an exchange. I know for a fact they have done this in the past with both Red Sea and Waterbox for issues like this.

1). I have 2 Red Sea Reefers. One ordered from BRS - the other ordered from my LFS. The one ordered by the LFS was delivered to them - they accepted delivery and delivered it to me - and set it up. If anything had happened (i.e. they dropped the tank, cracked it etc - they would have been responsible. If there was a defect they would have clearly been responsible). So - in this case if Mike ordered the tank from an LFS - and it was delivered to the store - the store would have more responsiblity. Hopefully you see where I'm coming from.

2). This problem would have been seen if the purchaser had put the tank on the floor assuming the floor was relatively level. He can see the problem even better on carpet. Obviously - you wouldn't need to put up the stand to see the problem. In any case - as I said this won't help him - but it may help someone else accepting a delivery.

3). Thats your opinion. In my opinion - explaining why he is not accepting their reasoning makes sense. We can agree to disagree. BTW - lets say he sets up the tank - and a week later there is water all over - having Red Sea agree that they will cover all the damages during the warranty period makes sense - it doesn't hurt to ask. (I agree with you that they would likely not do that - but - with a good enough email trail - if he had significant damage to his house because of this tank - he would likely win a court case - if he had said - I'll only keep the tank if you agree to cover any damages - again - we can agree to disagree.

4) Didn't see where that was said (about cash)- but - its unlikely the credit card company would have refunded it anyway given RedSea's response. Its unfortunate - though - because maybe the credit card company calling RedSea would have helped. I said the same thing about the LFS in my post ie - this: That said - it seems to me like the LFS should be barking hard at RedSea to make this good.

But - having said that - what does he do if Red Sea continues to say the tank is fine? Keep it? Sue the LFS (he would lose)? Sue Red Sea (it would cost more than the tank) or try some of the things I mentioned? At a minimum I would contact the supervisor directly - completely explain the situation - and hope that they agree with him. What are your suggestions?

 

[MnFish1]

We will have to agree to disagree on this approach as it isn't early in the process.
Mike has already received an email from Amanda at Red Sea's headquarters telling him her supervisor said the tank is ok.

And he said that he has a response from his LFS that The LFS is waiting for a response from RedSea.

What type of shipping logistics? Red Sea issues an RGA, Mike repacks the tank and returns it either to the LFS or the distributer at Red Sea's expense.
This is a black & white issue and there isn't any gray, the tank was not correctly made and personalities have nothing to do with it. You don't have to go nuclear to be polite but firm.

He's probably talking about the fact that most trucking companies will not pick up a tank 'immediately' - there will also be a negotiation about who will pay for the shipping - RedSea, the LFS or the customer (based on whatever the policies of RedSea are written in their policies) - this will probably take at least a couple weeks if not more to arrange pickup depending on schedules. Then Redsea has to look over the tank - and ship a new one. Maybe they will do that immediately - maybe not. Polite but firm is the way it should be - If it were me - rather than email-bombing the company at this point, I would be contacting my LFS who ordered the tank and let them deal with RedSea (after re-reading some of the posts). But - to me its still unclear exactly how the transaction went through the LFS. I also would not be threatening RedSea posting on a forum etc - thats not polite but firm IMHO.

In fact - I was under the impression that these types of discussion (on this forum) are supposed to be had with the vendor and the customer in a different section - to exactly avoid whats happening here - having people armchair quarterback (myself included) when we are only hearing one side of the story.

 

[Westside Guy]

1). I have 2 Red Sea Reefers. One ordered from BRS - the other ordered from my LFS. The one ordered by the LFS was delivered to them - they accepted delivery and delivered it to me - and set it up. If anything had happened (i.e. they dropped the tank, cracked it etc - they would have been responsible. If there was a defect they would have clearly been responsible). So - in this case if Mike ordered the tank from an LFS - and it was delivered to the store - the store would have more responsiblity. Hopefully you see where I'm coming from.

2). This problem would have been seen if the purchaser had put the tank on the floor assuming the floor was relatively level. He can see the problem even better on carpet. Obviously - you wouldn't need to put up the stand to see the problem. In any case - as I said this won't help him - but it may help someone else accepting a delivery.

3). Thats your opinion. In my opinion - explaining why he is not accepting their reasoning makes sense. We can agree to disagree. BTW - lets say he sets up the tank - and a week later there is water all over - having Red Sea agree that they will cover all the damages during the warranty period makes sense - it doesn't hurt to ask. (I agree with you that they would likely not do that - but - with a good enough email trail - if he had significant damage to his house because of this tank - he would likely win a court case - if he had said - I'll only keep the tank if you agree to cover any damages - again - we can agree to disagree.

4) Didn't see where that was said (about cash)- but - its unlikely the credit card company would have refunded it anyway given RedSea's response. Its unfortunate - though - because maybe the credit card company calling RedSea would have helped. I said the same thing about the LFS in my post ie - this: That said - it seems to me like the LFS should be barking hard at RedSea to make this good.

But - having said that - what does he do if Red Sea continues to say the tank is fine? Keep it? Sue the LFS (he would lose)? Sue Red Sea (it would cost more than the tank) or try some of the things I mentioned? At a minimum I would contact the supervisor directly - completely explain the situation - and hope that they agree with him. What are your suggestions?

1) I agree with you that the LFS should have taken care of this issue already.

2) the inspection when initially delivered might not have discovered the problem. I know that when my. 250 was delivered to my LFS they opened up the box and just checked for cracks and/or broken glass.

3) we can agree to disagree on this point. At the end of the day nobody wants to clean up a mess like this if the water is released.

4) if it was a credit card it is hit or miss depending on the card and the agent you speak to. I have had great success in the past with AMEX on issues like this but Visa dropped the ball in a similar situation.

Finally he needs to pressure the LFS, the owner has been there for only 1 month and still learning the business. Social media (Red Sea has a very active Facebook presence), local Google & Yelp reviews, etc are an approach he can mention to the owner if he doesn’t take care of this. I know I checked the reviews on Google and Yelp before buying from my LFS. Escalating the matter with Red Sea’s home office and their regional rep are the other approach. At the end of the day I don’t believe that anyone here on R2R would recommend that he put a drop of water in that tank!

 

[MnFish1]

3) we can agree to disagree on this point. At the end of the day nobody wants to clean up a mess like this if the water is released.

Thats definitely true.

4) if it was a credit card it is hit or miss depending on the card and the agent you speak to. I have had great success in the past with AMEX on issues like this but Visa dropped the ball in a similar situation.

Amex tends to be much better - I've never had a problem with a chargeback - though its rare to have needed one.

At the end of the day I don’t believe that anyone here on R2R would recommend that he put a drop of water in that tank!

Some people have posted it should be fine - I wouldn't do it for a minute either - because I would be paranoid the entire time I owned the tank. Have a 210 gallon Red Sea reefer in an upstairs room with wood floors throughout. and another one in a room with tile floors. I'm already paranoid about - 'what would happen if that broke' - I usually don't read these 'tank breaking' forums....

 

[ccombs]

And he said that he has a response from his LFS that The LFS is waiting for a response from RedSea.



He's probably talking about the fact that most trucking companies will not pick up a tank 'immediately' - there will also be a negotiation about who will pay for the shipping - RedSea, the LFS or the customer (based on whatever the policies of RedSea are written in their policies) - this will probably take at least a couple weeks if not more to arrange pickup depending on schedules. Then Redsea has to look over the tank - and ship a new one. Maybe they will do that immediately - maybe not. Polite but firm is the way it should be - If it were me - rather than email-bombing the company at this point, I would be contacting my LFS who ordered the tank and let them deal with RedSea (after re-reading some of the posts). But - to me its still unclear exactly how the transaction went through the LFS. I also would not be threatening RedSea posting on a forum etc - thats not polite but firm IMHO.

In fact - I was under the impression that these types of discussion (on this forum) are supposed to be had with the vendor and the customer in a different section - to exactly avoid whats happening here - having people armchair quarterback (myself included) when we are only hearing one side of the story.

Correct on shipping logistics. Freighting does not happen as quick as a UPS or FedEx pick-ups. Most corporations don't work with trucking companies that turn things around overnight. I work with trucking companies like that and it would be cost prohibitive for Red Sea, especially when their shipments are less than a full truckload.

There is also no guarantee that Red Sea has this tank in stock and not need it brought over via a plane or sea container (however they do it). I think the biggest debate will be who pays for shipping. Red Sea should pay for all of it, but sometimes that is not what they offer initially.

I agree with everyone that says the OP should not fill it and Red Sea should take care of the replacement and associated costs. All I was saying is that there is the potential for this to be a longer process than expected. I was also simply stating that the OP should be firm but polite and work through the correct channels.

Email bombing or being rude and demanding to a supervisor that has not even heard your case will not get you far. In my line of work I have direct contacts and friends who work for manufacturers and I promise that being over the top, rude, or unreasonable and impatient will not help your case.

Kindness and being firm are not opposites, they can work together.

 

[Westside Guy]

And he said that he has a response from his LFS that The LFS is waiting for a response from RedSea.



He's probably talking about the fact that most trucking companies will not pick up a tank 'immediately' - there will also be a negotiation about who will pay for the shipping - RedSea, the LFS or the customer (based on whatever the policies of RedSea are written in their policies) - this will probably take at least a couple weeks if not more to arrange pickup depending on schedules. Then Redsea has to look over the tank - and ship a new one. Maybe they will do that immediately - maybe not. Polite but firm is the way it should be - If it were me - rather than email-bombing the company at this point, I would be contacting my LFS who ordered the tank and let them deal with RedSea (after re-reading some of the posts). But - to me its still unclear exactly how the transaction went through the LFS. I also would not be threatening RedSea posting on a forum etc - thats not polite but firm IMHO.

In fact - I was under the impression that these types of discussion (on this forum) are supposed to be had with the vendor and the customer in a different section - to exactly avoid whats happening here - having people armchair quarterback (myself included) when we are only hearing one side of the story.

He said that they are now waiting for the Red Sea regional rep to get involved.

Either the tank is good or it is bad, if they are replacing the tank, they should also be responsible for the freight cost to return it. Red Sea already has pictures to support this claim and they shouldn't need to prolong Mike's issue any longer. At this point it is a matter of packing it up and scheduling a pickup from their designated trucker.

Many people post their quality and manufacturing issues in one of the public forums to hear opinions just like Mike did. In my opinion Mike's pictures gave us his side of the story, after all a picture says a thousand words!

 

[Potatohead]

I don't have much to add other than that really sucks, I would not fill that tank in my home personally.

I really want to know if you are this Mike Portnoy? lol

 

[MnFish1]

He said that they are now waiting for the Red Sea regional rep to get involved.

Either the tank is good or it is bad, if they are replacing the tank, they should also be responsible for the freight cost to return it. Red Sea already has pictures to support this claim and they shouldn't need to prolong Mike's issue any longer. At this point it is a matter of packing it up and scheduling a pickup from their designated trucker.

Many people post their quality and manufacturing issues in one of the public forums to hear opinions just like Mike did. In my opinion Mike's pictures gave us his side of the story, after all a picture says a thousand words!

Well there are other options as well.

1. Redsea may be correct - the people here may be wrong. I have had nothing but great success with RedSea and all of their products - and customer service. Note - I don't believe the people here are wrong - but I also don't see why RedSea would say 'its fine' if they didn't really think it would be 'fine' - because thats a lawsuit waiting to happen.
2. I said the LFS is working to get a response from RedSea - whether its a regional rep - or a supervisor it makes no difference. My only point is that the OP asked for advice. I was just saying - stick with one method and then escalate - don't go to 10 people at once - and email-bombing is rarely effective.
3. Here is a quote from @rehvtree(his quote is in blue). - In general and threads like this have been deleted - because complaints such as this talking about is supposed to remain between the buyer and the seller. Its fine to ask a question and say 'does this tank look good or bad' - but when it starts to involve discussions between the vendor and others commenting - is where I think it becomes an issue

I am sorry you feel this way but this is not the reason we don't allow threads where everyone shares vendor feedback all together. The reason we have this rule is because in the past people have joined to the forum just to post bad feedback or piggyback on bad feedback who has never even had transactions with a particular vendor. People have also created fake accounts to leave fake reviews and feedback. As it is now we have the VENDOR FEEDBACK FORUM where everyone is allowed to create a thread whenever they feel it necessary. Since we allow only the person who created the thread to post it allows us to be able to somewhat verify that the feedback is indeed from a real transaction and at times be able to mediate resolutions.

On a side note. We don't want bad vendors represented here on R2R. That's why we've removed multiple vendors from advertising on our forums in the past. We also want to be very fair to our members and our vendors in the decisions we come to.

 

[ccombs]

I don't have much to add other than that really sucks, I would not fill that tank in my home personally.

I really want to know if you are this Mike Portnoy? lol

I was wondering the same thing haha.

 

[Westside Guy]

I was wondering the same thing haha.

I believe that Mike Portnoy lives in Pennsylvania.

 

[Potatohead]

I believe that that Mike Portnoy lives in Pennsylvania.

You're crushing my dreams man

 

[hotdrop]

You would have to sketch up a free body diagram with the locations of all the supports but this might not be as bad as people here are saying it is. I have a hard time figuring out from your pictures if the glass is curved or if the stand is warped/skewed. That latter would be more liker than the former as the glass should be precut would have other problems (manifesting at the edges) if it was assembled in a non flat state.
The tank should sit flush after you add a couple of inches of water to it. If it takes more than that to flatten it out id be a bit more worried. That being said... that really shouldn't be your problem, either the tank or the stand are built out of spec, and like you I would be ticked and return it. Its really shameful that RS is giving you so much grief about the tank.
The industry has a real problem with quality... considering the prices we pay for this stuff it really should be perfect.

 

[MnFish1]

You would have to sketch up a free body diagram with the locations of all the supports but this might not be as bad as people here are saying it is. I have a hard time figuring out from your pictures if the glass is curved or if the stand is warped/skewed. That latter would be more liker than the former as the glass should be precut would have other problems (manifesting at the edges) if it was assembled in a non flat state.
The tank should sit flush after you add a couple of inches of water to it. If it takes more than that to flatten it out id be a bit more worried. That being said... that really shouldn't be your problem, either the tank or the stand are built out of spec, and like you I would be ****** and return it. Its really shameful that RS is giving you so much grief about the tank.
The industry has a real problem with quality... considering the prices we pay for this stuff it really should be perfect.

It seems like it looks this way when sitting on carpet as well. (i.e. off the stand)