Kind of an ethics question

[chefmike]

How does everyone feel about the coral businesses out there that are buying up whole colonies only to cut them up in to very small frags to make an enormous return on their investment? I understand it if you are actually aquaculturing coral. I have seen too often where totally wild colonies are just being chopped to pieces in an effort to make profit only.

I don't know...just something bouncing around in my head.

 

[pakora]

How does everyone feel about the coral businesses out there that are buying up whole colonies only to cut them up in to very small frags to make an enormous return on their investment? I understand it if you are actually aquaculturing coral. I have seen too often where totally wild colonies are just being chopped to pieces in an effort to make profit only.

I don't know...just something bouncing around in my head.

On the other side of the coin, they are allowing the frags to spread and insure their survival I understand your point though. :xd:

 

[fsu1dolfan]

Yeah i can definitely see a couple of sides here but for the most part its a win win....

Busniess is busniess and if you can make a buck then go for it....not many people are willing and able to take large colonies, frag them, and sell them. But many people benefit from this...due to cheaper cost for corals instead of buying a large colony, chances that a few may start aquaculturing from these small pieces, and spread many pieces of the same colony all over... distributing to mulitple people instead of these multiple people buying large colonies....and aquaculturing seems to be growing so the spread of the one wild colony could go for years just from a few who continue to frag pieces. I would think it would cause less strain on oceans corals.

 

[Seahorsedreams]

Sometimes I almost cry when I see these big beautiful colonies heading to the saw. I'm also a little tired of staring at people's frag plugs in their display tanks. I'm setting up a new 100g tank and I'm afraid of what I will find... or won't find coral wise to put in there. This hobby is going through a little trendy phase right now... I'll trade ya my sunset monti for a polyp of rainbow. If you are into that, it's fun. If your not, you're kind of left out in the cold. I just think this hobby was more fun 10 years ago.

 

[Saltysteele]

if anyone doesn't want to see them getting cut up, buy them yourselves

that's the name of the game. buy them big and sell them small. if this didn't happen, most of us would not have any corals. i know i can't afford to purchase whole colonies of some of these sweeties

 

[JuniorMC8704]

This all goes back to the neverending conversation we have had here 100x.

retailers 99% of the time, pay the same price for all chalices, sps, whatever the coral is. The problem for the retailers is, they may be forced to buy multiple specimens that are for lack of a better term...junk, for each premium piece they get. These "junk" corals bring them little to no profit. Also, die off has to be factored in.

All these things need to be taken into consideration. Also, this hobby is a sellers market right now. You gotta pay to play. Until retailers are unable to get top dollar for tiny frags, dont expect anything to change, and the way the top pieces get bought up so quick currently, it here to stay, for the forseable future anyway.

 

[TyreeUM]

not to mention you can get ALL of the corals you could get 10 years ago for the most part and for even cheaper then they were back then. Think about toadstool leathers, xenia, indo open brain corals etc. Saying you are left out in the cold couldnt be any further from the truth. I remember paying 75 bucks for a freaking 2 stalk red sea xenia 10 years ago, you cant even GIVE that stuff away anymore. You should have no problem finding huge colorful zoa colonies from vietnam for under 80 bucks. You cant look at a collectors coral and say "what a shame they are charging so much for such a small piece"...last time I checked 10 years ago you couldnt find a watermelon chalice colony at your local LFS along side a tank of tan a pink softies...

 

[reefboy]

not to mention you can get ALL of the corals you could get 10 years ago for the most part and for even cheaper then they were back then. Think about toadstool leathers, xenia, indo open brain corals etc. Saying you are left out in the cold couldnt be any further from the truth. I remember paying 75 bucks for a freaking 2 stalk red sea xenia 10 years ago, you cant even GIVE that stuff away anymore. You should have no problem finding huge colorful zoa colonies from vietnam for under 80 bucks. You cant look at a collectors coral and say "what a shame they are charging so much for such a small piece"...last time I checked 10 years ago you couldnt find a watermelon chalice colony at your local LFS along side a tank of tan a pink softies...

Very well said

 

[Reef Pets]

You hit the nail on the head!!

Trust me, there is not as much profit as one might think. There are many things that people that are not in the business do not consider. Such as electricity, time to cut up those pricey colonies, infection and loss from cutting them up the list could go on and on. I go through $110.00 per week in diamond blades for my saw. I sell over 100 frags per week and could not make a living from it, that goes to show that there is not the profit that one may think there is.
So, when you purchase that nice frag and you feel that you are paying too much for it, you are not geting ripped off! The retailer had to pay more for that nice piece as well and just passing on the high cost.

Not only is the coral expensive to purchase but add in the shipping from lets say Australia, about 400.00 per box of coral (if you dont live on the coast), CITIES, box fees, heat pack fees and again the list goes on and on...........

I think that you can as most of the sponsors on this site and they will tell you that they got a day job and sell coral for additional funds.

This all goes back to the neverending conversation we have had here 100x.

retailers 99% of the time, pay the same price for all chalices, sps, whatever the coral is. The problem for the retailers is, they may be forced to buy multiple specimens that are for lack of a better term...junk, for each premium piece they get. These "junk" corals bring them little to no profit. Also, die off has to be factored in.

All these things need to be taken into consideration. Also, this hobby is a sellers market right now. You gotta pay to play. Until retailers are unable to get top dollar for tiny frags, dont expect anything to change, and the way the top pieces get bought up so quick currently, it here to stay, for the forseable future anyway.

 

[Ladipyg]

Again, it all goes to the fact that the average hobbiest has NO IDEA what it is like to run a business. I have a friend who ran a business out of their home and when I'd be over there helping to unpack fish..., the ones that didn't make it, well, those costs are "eaten" by them, frag a $200 coral and half the frags don't make it, that's on you too. Get a shipper not paying attention to what's being put in your box and where it stands on the CITES list and you could lose your whole shipment and pay a staggering fine to boot. Fiji shippers have gotten so lax that right now hardly anything is coming out of there as I understand...not ever rock! Jeff, a guy out of Elkhart Indiana was at our CMAS frag swap. He had some unbelievable beautiful corals, his chalices were enough to make you cry...but he had whole, HUGE colonies...and the average buyer didn't want them. I am still kicking myself for not taking a huge yellow and pink humilis colony he had for $50...WHAT WAS I THINKING!! Had my 120 gallon been set up...some of those sweet pieces would have made it home with me for sure. Sometimes you just want to look at a colony instead of 2 or 3 dozen little frags. I know he has a website but I don't know if he's a sponsor here or not, and I don't want to commit a faux paux by putting it out there. I mentioned this site to him and told him to join. If you are looking for colonies, he is the man for sure. The chalice I wanted was over 8" across in both directions...WOW!

 

[jechupp]

Ladipyg,

Thanks for the cudo's! I do have whole colonies and am so disappointed to attend a frag swap and not be able sell full pieces. It seems to me that people would want a nice sized chalice rather than some tiny piece that will take two years to grow. The beauty of a full wild colony just cannot be replaced by a small frag. The retailers are getting a contraction of customers, but we do live in a free market economy, your dollar, your choice. In the mean time I'm happy to give other reefers some of the nicest corals I've ever seen. This is a great conversation by the way.

 

[Reef Pets]

Being that this hobby is rather expensive many people have went to ano or smal tanks. If you have a small tank or nano then large colonies are not an option.
For a large reef by all means colonies are beautiful but for the nano tanks frags are the way to go so that variety is an option.

I really like colonies but frags allow for lots of variety and allow the frags to grow into the reef. Sometime setting a larger colony in a reef looks awkward and stick out like a sore thumb.
Again, I like both just depending on what size the reef is depends on what size coral a person can have.

 

[Seahorsedreams]

I wasn't criticizing, just joining in on the discussion with my views.... it's what discussions are all about. My tank was awesome back then. I use to buy WYSIWYG from a placed called cquarium. They had stuff I would never see in the stores. I am really attracted to grown in tanks, personal preference. I am really unattracted to articial/unnatural looking things in my tank and have gone through great lengths to conseal things. Reef plugs of any sort just kind of jumpout at me.... in the wrong way *shrugs*