Last Call Before Tearing Down Tank

[Crustaceon]

Just shoot me and get it over with. Tank looked great for a day, algae already starting to grow in my ATS, and bam red hairs all over everything again. It's back and spreading quickly so after all I've done and all your help I'm back to square one. Something in my system is causing it and it just makes no sense at this point. Other than thriving on Chemi-Clean to band-aid the problem I see no way of stopping it. Guess let nature take its course and hopefully something will survive in the end.

Give the scrubber, bacteria and Po4 levels time to increase. Sometimes it takes weeks before that balance starts to be realized. The idea is to really have other things thriving more than the bad stuff. Typically this is beneficial bacteria instead of cyanobacteria. BUT...I do have a theory that maybe others here can contemplate and comment on: Theoretically, this process can probably be accelerated by blacking out the tank for 2-3 days to suppress the cyano as it’s partly photosynthetic, adding a small amount of phosphate (Flourish Phosphorus or similar -.05ppm worth) to better match up with your nitrate level, add a carbon source such as 1ml of vodka or equivalent ratio of vinegar and a bottle of beneficial bacteria such as seachem pristine or stability. This will cause a bacterial bloom of the beneficial stuff and definitely spur more algae growth on the scrubber, all while the tank is blacked out and the cyano has no chance to compete. This will most likely lightly cloud the tank, cause a few ppm drop in nitrates but shouldn’t cause an oxygenation issue in the tank if a skimmer is ran during the process. This plan would be very easy on everything in the tank but cyano buy using the Redfield ratio against it.

 

[incloud design]

Give the scrubber, bacteria and Po4 levels time to increase. Sometimes it takes weeks before that balance starts to be realized. The idea is to really have other things thriving more than the bad stuff. Typically this is beneficial bacteria instead of cyanobacteria. BUT...I do have a theory that maybe others here can contemplate and comment on: Theoretically, this process can probably be accelerated by blacking out the tank for 2-3 days to suppress the cyano as it’s partly photosynthetic, adding a small amount of phosphate (Flourish Phosphorus or similar -.05ppm worth) to better match up with your nitrate level, add a carbon source such as 1ml of vodka or equivalent ratio of vinegar and a bottle of beneficial bacteria such as seachem pristine or stability. This will cause a bacterial bloom of the beneficial stuff and definitely spur more algae growth on the scrubber, all while the tank is blacked out and the cyano has no chance to compete. This will most likely lightly cloud the tank, cause a few ppm drop in nitrates but shouldn’t cause an oxygenation issue in the tank if a skimmer is ran during the process. This plan would be very easy on everything in the tank but cyano buy using the Redfield ratio against it.

I appreciate your suggestions but have decided I am going to try the one thing I haven't tried of all the different chemicals, additives and techniques possible in this hobby and that's do nothing. Theoretically my system has everything it needs to be perfectly stable, my livestock are all happy as of now so the only one bothered by this is me. I keep trying to manually force things to be as I wish and all I'm doing is causing more problems. I've sworn myself against touching anything and am going to let nature take it's course. If evolution isn't enough then I'm done trying to play God.

 

[Crustaceon]

I appreciate your suggestions but have decided I am going to try the one thing I haven't tried of all the different chemicals, additives and techniques possible in this hobby and that's do nothing. Theoretically my system has everything it needs to be perfectly stable, my livestock are all happy as of now so the only one bothered by this is me. I keep trying to manually force things to be as I wish and all I'm doing is causing more problems. I've sworn myself against touching anything and am going to let nature take it's course. If evolution isn't enough then I'm done trying to play God.

THAT right there is the best move. This is a lot like a hair algae outbreak in the fact that if you take away the conditions for it to exist, it will gradually die off. As soon as you see a reduction in cyano, any reduction, it will completely reward your patience and diligence.

 

[incloud design]

THAT right there is the best move. This is a lot like a hair algae outbreak in the fact that if you take away the conditions for it to exist, it will gradually die off. As soon as you see a reduction in cyano, any reduction, it will completely reward your patience and diligence.

Agreed, I'll just obsess over the ATS like watching water boil instead, lol.

 

[incloud design]

THAT right there is the best move. This is a lot like a hair algae outbreak in the fact that if you take away the conditions for it to exist, it will gradually die off. As soon as you see a reduction in cyano, any reduction, it will completely reward your patience and diligence.

Agreed, I'll just obsess over the ATS like watching water boil instead, lol.

 

[incloud design]

My phone keeps double posting, sorry.

 

[incloud design]

Anyone use Hanna testers?

 

[Crustaceon]

Anyone use Hanna testers?

I used the alk tester and loved it. The calcium checker is totally dependent on your RO not having calcium in it though, lol. I thought I had 550 calcium after one test...Nope, it was just off by 100ppm.

 

[incloud design]

I used the alk tester and loved it. The calcium checker is totally dependent on your RO not having calcium in it though, lol. I thought I had 550 calcium after one test...Nope, it was just off by 100ppm.

I have a few of them and was just trying to test my phosphares and it cycles through as it should at first but doesn't blink press for the vile. Just changed batteries and still no change. Weird!

 

[incloud design]

I used the alk tester and loved it. The calcium checker is totally dependent on your RO not having calcium in it though, lol. I thought I had 550 calcium after one test...Nope, it was just off by 100ppm.

I have a few of them and was just trying to test my phosphares and it cycles through as it should at first but doesn't blink press for the vile. Just changed batteries and still no change. Weird!

 

[incloud design]

Guys do you think I should leave the lights on or keep them off? I'm trying to leave it alone but the Cyano just keeps growing. I am strtstar to get Algae growth in my ATS but very slowly so I don't imagine it can be aiding my cause too much at this point.

 

[Crustaceon]

Guys do you think I should leave the lights on or keep them off? I'm trying to leave it alone but the Cyano just keeps growing. I am strtstar to get Algae growth in my ATS but very slowly so I don't imagine it can be aiding my cause too much at this point.

The scrubber will help maintain your nitrates and phosphates. Keep in mind, as it grows right now, it’s continually pulling more nitrates and phosphates out of the water, which will keep your parameters in a range that favors the cyano. It’s a bit of a conundrum as you’re trying to add more pollution to the tank in order to establish a method to export it. As the phosphates increase and maintain at or above .02, beneficial bacteria will start to outcompete the cyano as long as enough nitrates are present. Bacteria needs to consume a ratio of nitrates and phosphates and once the supply of phosphates stops, so does the reduction of nitrates. This is why people have issues with carbon dosing and actually see their nitrate levels increase! The way around this is to manually add a phosphate source, causing the beneficial bacteria population to consume a percentage of nitrates and phosphates, which can then be skimmed out. The goal with using the algae scrubber is similar but enough nitrates AND phosphates need to be present to grow the algae.

 

[incloud design]

The scrubber will help maintain your nitrates and phosphates. Keep in mind, as it grows right now, it’s continually pulling more nitrates and phosphates out of the water, which will keep your parameters in a range that favors the cyano. It’s a bit of a conundrum as you’re trying to add more pollution to the tank in order to establish a method to export it. As the nitrates and phosphates increase to around 2ppm & .02, beneficial bacteria will start to outcompete the cyano. The goal with using the algae scrubber is to keep nitrates and phosphates from elevating much past that point.

My nitrates are about 20ppm on API. Phosphates .01 I'm running the ATS lit 24 hours and it is only starting to grow algae where the water is coming out at the top of the waterfall. Right now I have my display lights off.

 

[Crustaceon]

Now would be the perfect time to add a phosphate source and a little bit of vinegar or vodka. You nitrate level is plenty but I’m betting your low phosphates are the root issue. I think if you can get the beneficial bacteria to bloom and then maintain phosphates closer to .03 or even higher with the lights out, it’s going to be hard for the cyano to compete. Let the skimmer run for aeration for a week, but set the level low so it doesn’t remove the bacterial bloom yet.

This was posted by Retro Reefer on this forum last August and gives a little more weight to the “more nutrients breeds bacteria to fight cyano” theory:

“Sounds counter intuitive but I had cyano for over a year in one of my tanks and nothing I tried got rid of it until I substantially increased feedings, pulled GAC and stoped skimming 24/7.. cyano quickly disappeared and hasn’t returned.”

 

[jsker]

Guys do you think I should leave the lights on or keep them off? I'm trying to leave it alone but the Cyano just keeps growing. I am strtstar to get Algae growth in my ATS but very slowly so I don't imagine it can be aiding my cause too much at this point.

It really depends on how bad the cyano is. I have messed with quite a few different methods to treat cyano with out using a slime remover.

@Crustaceon is correct in balancing the beneficial bacteria.

Cyano will feed on the phosphates and a carbon source.

One thing also is to determine if you have cyano or dino's. Light out will help with both but they will both come back until one finds the source. I found when I had Dino's, I turned down my White spectrum and the Dino went away. The last cyano battle I fought, I treated with H2O2 for two weeks and then used a red slim/cyano remover and my tank is the cleanest it has been from cyano in about 1.5 years. I did kill of some of my corals though. I was really getting over the cyano and went aggressive.

 

[Crustaceon]

Here’s the question: What’s more likely to readily uptake nitrates/phosphates in a typical range first? Cyano or free-floating beneficial bacterium? If I add 1ml of vodka to my tank I have no doubt the water will cloud with beneficial bacteria, especially since I haven’t carbon dosed in six months. Now given this is without visible cyano on the sand, but there most likely are spores of cyano floating around, ready and waiting to take over. It makes me think this might work IF phosphates are added to make the parameters more conducive to nitrifying bacteria, simply because so many people carbon dose to propagate them, all without getting cyano. When they do get cyano from carbon dosing (and dinos Mr. NoPox shill) I think we can all acknowledge it’s due to either nitrates but more typically phosphates being completely depleted from the tank. These tanks of course all have plenty of nitrates and phosphates to work with and probably don’t have or never develop visible cyano because of it. This makes me want to break out my 10 gallon tank and test it.

 

[incloud design]

Here’s the question: What’s more likely to readily uptake nitrates/phosphates in a typical range first? Cyano or free-floating beneficial bacterium? If I add 1ml of vodka to my tank I have no doubt the water will cloud with beneficial bacteria, especially since I haven’t carbon dosed in six months. Now given this is without visible cyano on the sand, but there most likely are spores of cyano floating around, ready and waiting to take over. It makes me think this might work IF phosphates are added to make the parameters more conducive to nitrifying bacteria, simply because so many people carbon dose to propagate them, all without getting cyano. These tanks of course all have plenty of nitrates and phosphates to work with and probably don’t have visible cyano because of it. This makes me want to break out my 10 gallon tank and test it.

I know the thread is long but I have already gone through and in the end used Chemi Clean which completely cleared all Cyano for 2 days. Lights on and it is right back all over everything. Maybe adding vinegar or vodka would help but it may make matters worse. I'm lost on what to do and Coral need light. Beneficial bacteria and algae both take time to populate. So like the name of the thread when I started it, Last Call!

 

[incloud design]

I just tried to turn my lights on and we are having a bad storm so the internet is out. The lights won't come on so I'd imagine the controller can't connect. I use a Bluefish controller.

 

[Crustaceon]

I have one last idea here and it’s not the “nuclear option”. I know you aren’t a fan of dumping chemicals into the tank BUT in the first year of being in the hobby, I also had a cyano outbreak in my 36 bowfront and used chemiclean. I treated the tank for 48 hours and it failed initially but succeeded eventually. This was over eight years ago so pardon my terrible memory as I exist in cat years. I remember adding the dose as indicated in the directions, blacking out the tank and doing the 20% water change afterwards (I was big on water changes back then...). Well, my cyano came back an hour after my lights came back on. I immediately re-dosed and shut the lights off again for 72 hours. Gone permanently. It was this tank.

The reason it came right back is because I didn’t kill all of it. Chemiclean is an antibiotic (erythromycin I believe) and even though the directions say to dose for 48 hours, just like us taking antibiotics, I don’t think we’re “using the whole bottle” and finishing the course of antibiotics to eradicate that strain of bacteria. So after I gave the tank another proper course of antibiotics, I finally won and all of my corals survived even though the tank was dark for nearly a week. The reason? IMO, they can take it. Honestly, how many cloudy days do you think corals experience per week, including acropora? I went to Kona one year and it rained the whole dang time. That’s a week where all of those rad Hawaiian corals just offshore were barely getting any PAR. And I’m sure this happens all the time. They do great with consistent lighting but can tolerate more than a few days without NP. The beauty of evolution.

 

[incloud design]

I have one last idea here and it’s not the “nuclear option”. I know you aren’t a fan of dumping chemicals into the tank BUT in the first year of being in the hobby, I also had a cyano outbreak in my 36 bowfront and used chemiclean. I treated the tank for 48 hours and it failed initially but succeeded eventually. This was over eight years ago so pardon my terrible memory as I exist in cat years. I remember adding the dose as indicated in the directions, blacking out the tank and doing the 20% water change afterwards (I was big on water changes back then...). Well, my cyano came back an hour after my lights came back on. I immediately re-dosed and shut the lights off again for 72 hours. Gone permanently. It was this tank.

The reason it came right back is because I didn’t kill all of it. Chemiclean is an antibiotic (erythromycin I believe) and even though the directions say to dose for 48 hours, just like us taking antibiotics, I don’t think we’re “using the whole bottle” and finishing the course of antibiotics to eradicate that strain of bacteria. So after I gave the tank another proper course of antibiotics, I finally won and all of my corals survived even though the tank was dark for nearly a week. The reason? IMO, they can take it. Honestly, how many cloudy days do you think corals experience per week, including acropora? I went to Kona one year and it rained the whole dang time. That’s a week where all of those rad Hawaiian corals just offshore were barely getting any PAR. And I’m sure this happens all the time. They do great with consistent lighting but can tolerate more than a few days without NP. The beauty of evolution.

I have a half bottle of Cyano RX. I'm tempted to take your approach but am concerned it is going to kill off what's growing in my ATS which I believe is going to help overall, just not soon enough. Also, whatever is causing the Cyano will most likely be present still after the dose. It's a tough call but I'm getting desperate. It bums me out so bad because the New England Frag Farmers Market is in a week and I was looking very forward to stocking my tank. I can't of course with this going on.

 

[Crustaceon]

I have a half bottle of Cyano RX. I'm tempted to take your approach but am concerned it is going to kill off what's growing in my ATS which I believe is going to help overall, just not soon enough. Also, whatever is causing the Cyano will most likely be present still after the dose. It's a tough call but I'm getting desperate. It bums me out so bad because the New England Frag Farmers Market is in a week and I was looking very forward to stocking my tank. I can't of course with this going on.

I wouldn’t worry about the ATS at the moment as it’s probably not becoming very established anyways due to the lack of phosphates. It would probably be more beneficial to simply turn off the ATS light to allow phosphate levels to increase and the overall health of the tank to improve as a result. Once the cyano is toast and phosphates are elevated, the ATS light can be turned back on and will take off and the screen should be dark green within 48 hours. Then you can start feeding the tank like crazy. On a side note: Sometimes I get bored and scrub my screen until it’s nothing but the opaque color it came as. Within days it’ll have 1/8” of algae growth on the entire surface. I’ve had very little growth since I let my phosphate levels slide but the growth restarted immediately after I added a little Flourish Nitrogen. Phosphate is just one of those things where if you don’t have enough, it causes all kinds of problems. Just look at the coloration for example:

Good nutrient levels
(5ppm Nitrates, .04 Phosphates)

Oops
(5ppm Nitrates, Undetectable Phosphates)
(Note the biopellets that stripped out my Po4)