Need some advice/help with Raising PH/ALk, and maybe adding moire trace elements such as iodine? Corals are looking brown?

[David100]

I have a Pally that is currently looking a little browner than I would like and after some testing I have found I need to look into raising my PH, ALk and maybe dosing some iodine.
I am still fairly new to this hobby and im a little confused as there seems to be lots of ways to do this however the easiest I have seen seems to be the All for reef solution by TMC, which will dose trace elements like iodine, help raise my PH and alk and everything else in-between? It seems from the face of it to be the easiest and most economical option. I have a 130L tank so I was thinking of mixing 500Ml up and dosing 1Ml every few days and reviewing how the tank reacts?

Other alternatives I have seen are 2 part dosing, Kalkwasser and general PH/KH boosterlike Microbe Lift Complete KH&PH stabiliser which I found in my lfs.

I dont have a lot of corals, I have 2 Leathers, 1 hammer and 1 paly, everything else looks ok, but the pally looks a little brown, so id like to try and get my ph up and maybe dose some iodine in the all for reef solution that covers this or individually? as well as raise my PH/KH?

My current Params are:

KH: 6
PH 7.8
Salinity : 1.024-1.025
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate -20
Phos 0.050

Can anyone offer some advice? Specifically on if dosing All for reef in a system like this would help or if a different solution should be looked into? , or if iodine may help with the pally from browning off?

Would a Co2 Scrubber be a worthwhile investment while supplementing iodine to help the pally as a alternative to dosing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I personally doubt that color has much, if anything, to do with any of your mentioned parameters, but at 6 dKH, I'd certainly dose alkalinity and calcium (no test reported), though for soft corals like yours I wouldn't not expect a visible change.

There are many good ways to dose alk and calcium. AFR is one, so are two parts (commercial and DIY), limewater (kalkwasser), CaCO3/CO2 reactors, and more.

A trace element supplement is also a fine experiment. Tropic Marin A and K may be a fine choice.

 

[David100]

I personally doubt that color has much, if anything, to do with any of your mentioned parameters, but at 6 dKH, I'd certainly dose alkalinity and calcium (no test reported), though for soft corals like yours I wouldn't not expect a visible change.

There are many good ways to dose alk and calcium. AFR is one, so are two parts (commercial and DIY), limewater (kalkwasser), CaCO3/CO2 reactors, and more.

A trace element supplement is also a fine experiment. Tropic Marin A and K may be a fine choice.

Brilliant thank you very much, I can see TMC K+ Includes
(strontium, barium, iron, manganese, copper, zinc, nickel, chrome, cobalt and boron in pure mineral form)

While TMC A- Includes (iodine, fluorine, bromine, lithium, vanadium, molybdenum and selenium in pure mineral form)


While TMC All For Reef includes all elements of the Tropic Marin® K+ and A- Elements whilst helping increase the ALK & Calc , I think this seems like the easiest, cost effective, and best way to go, thank you for your help, do you think 1ml every few days in a 130L tank while testing PH/KH and Calcium would be a good start

Are there any negatives to consider with TMC All For Reef?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are there any negatives to consider with TMC All For Reef?

The negative for your plan is your ongoing need for alk will be quite low and so you may not get much in the way of trace elements, hence the reason to recommend the trace element supplement.

 

[David100]

The negative for your plan is your ongoing need for alk will be quite low and so you may not get much in the way of trace elements, hence the reason to recommend the trace element supplement.

Sorry I have tried to understand the science for a little bit before writing this but im struggling to understand, I thought the All For Reef was designed to be a all in one solution? To raise Alk/Calcium and replenish the trace elements?

Tropic Marin | Aquarium | Produktinformationen

Tropic Mairn - The aquatic life science company. Wir stellen hochwertige Salze, Additive und Wassertests vorwiegend für Meerwasseraquarien her. Korallen, Fische und Wirbellose in Ihrem Aquarium fühlen sich mit unseren Produkten wohl.

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

Their summary is "Ultra-concentrated mineral mixture with which an easy-to-use, highly concentrated all-round solution is available for the supply of all important minerals and trace elements."

If this is supplying trace elements why would I also need the Tropic Marin® K+ and A- Elements ?

Again sorry if this comes across as un-knowledgeable I just want to try and understand why AFR isnt the all in one solution I thought it was.

I understand that traditional 2 part dosing seems to replace key elements but over time will result in a sodium chloride build up and less trace elements. and the balling method replenishes the other elements to some extent? This seems really complicated to me at the moment and ideally I want to find a simpler solution as I cant fully wrap my head around this.

Source:


So to Clarify without going on a tangent, the AFR will help with ALK, but my lack of corals will result in
a low ALK uptake which can have a knock on effect to trace elements so I will need to use something like Tropic Marin® K+ and A- Elements to supplement these elements as AFR doesn't supply a sufficient amount? is this correct?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry I have tried to understand the science for a little bit before writing this but im struggling to understand, I thought the All For Reef was designed to be a all in one solution? To raise Alk/Calcium and replenish the trace elements?

It is, but as you note at the end of your post, it doses trace elements in a fixed ratio to alk and calcium dosed. In a tank with no hard corals or strong coralline growth using up alk and calcium, but still with lots of trace element demand from other growing organisms such as soft corals and algae of various types, it will match the alk demand, but potentially fall short of the trace elements consumed.

It's an inherent flaw in any such system that ties trace elements to alk and calcium.

Using a pure trace element supplement does not suffer that particular flaw.

 

[Hooz]

Randy is correct (Randy is always correct! ). Although, I think with a dkh of 6, your main concern is to raise that to "normal" levels as the first priority, THEN see where you're at with regards to the rest of your levels (including traces).

I'm a big fan of All for Reef, especially on smaller tanks and simpler setups. They recommend a starting dose of 5ml AFR for every 100L of tank volume. I recommend starting at half that and seeing where you're at, then slowly increasing until alk stabilizes at 8dkh (or close to 8).

You can dose once daily by hand, but try to keep it around the same time of day. Start with about 3ml and dose that each day for 3 days, then test and see where you're at and adjust accordingly if you need more, up it to 4.5ml and dose that daily for 3 days, then test again and see. Keep doing that until you get where you need to be.

For reference, I have a heavily stocked LPS/softie tank running All for Reef for about 2 years. After sand, rock, etc, it holds an actual 21 gallons of water, but I have to dose 10.8ml daily to keep up with demand. I use a dosing pump and dose .9ml every 2 hours around the clock.

 

[arking_mark]

Please note that unlike many other Alk dosing methods, there is a delay between the dosing and measurable Alk impact as AFR uses calcium formate. Calcium Formate requires breakdown of the formate to provide the Alk. This can be slow in tanks until the bacteria builds up. Even then, I usually don't see the impact for several hours. I don't recommend using Ca measurements to regulate AFR as our test kits are way too imprecise. The best method in my opinion is to understand your Ca/Alk demand and build up to the appropriate dose and measuring frequently until your at replacement levels.

 

[Hooz]

Please note that unlike many other Alk dosing methods, there is a delay between the dosing and measurable Alk impact as AFR uses calcium formate. Calcium Formate requires breakdown of the formate to provide the Alk. This can be slow in tanks until the bacteria builds up. Even then, I usually don't see the impact for several hours. I don't recommend using Ca measurements to regulate AFR as our test kits are way too imprecise. The best method in my opinion is to understand your Ca/Alk demand and build up to the appropriate dose and measuring frequently until your at replacement levels.

This is why I always suggest dosing the same amount of AFR for 3 days before making any changes. That way you give the bacteria time to catch-up.

This is also the reason that I always suggest putting it on a dosing pump. You technically don't HAVE to, you can certainly dose daily by hand. But, the way I see it is bacteria never sleep. If you're looking for the ultimate in stability, then breaking up the dose over the entire 24 hours is the best bet. It's harder to do with the tiny amounts a lot of nano tanks would use, but even breaking it in half and dosing 12 hours apart would be better than all at once, IMO.

 

[arking_mark]

This is why I always suggest dosing the same amount of AFR for 3 days before making any changes. That way you give the bacteria time to catch-up.

This is also the reason that I always suggest putting it on a dosing pump. You technically don't HAVE to, you can certainly dose daily by hand. But, the way I see it is bacteria never sleep. If you're looking for the ultimate in stability, then breaking up the dose over the entire 24 hours is the best bet. It's harder to do with the tiny amounts a lot of nano tanks would use, but even breaking it in half and dosing 12 hours apart would be better than all at once, IMO.

Completely concur. I dose throughout the day on a doser.

 

[David100]

So essentially the AFR solution does 90% of the work but dosing additional trace elements to top them back up from time to time is also needed in a tank with a low amount of corals as the trace elements will be depleted faster than the ALk is?

@arking_mark I was considering just making up a solution and putting it on a dosing pump at around 1-2 ml for a week to allow for the breakdown of the Calcium Formate and to slowly bring up my alc and other elements without shocking the tank, at that point, I can test the Alk levels once a week and adjust the dosage by 1ml at a time to find a sweet spot of stability.

My only real concern is how do you test for trace elements? When do you know to add in Tropic Marin® K+ and A- Elements to top these up? Assuming over a time I find a sweet spot of 4-5 ml of AFR over time the trace elements will be depeted so periodically I guess I will need to dose Tropic Marin® K+ or/and A- Elements? But when will I know? Or is this also a constant dosing process too?

 

[Viking_Reefing]

In a tank that small that will have such low consumption there’s basically no point in overthinking things. Just do a few water changes and your parameters will be back in line.

I wouldn’t add any more complexity such as co2 scrubbers and the like before there’s an actual need.
In fact my take is that I would just do kalkwasser and water changes, super cheap and simple…and should help raising the PH.
You would be surprised of how far you can take a tank with such a simple approach.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My only real concern is how do you test for trace elements? When do you know to add in Tropic Marin® K+ and A- Elements to top these up? Assuming over a time I find a sweet spot of 4-5 ml of AFR over time the trace elements will be depeted so periodically I guess I will need to dose Tropic Marin® K+ or/and A- Elements? But when will I know? Or is this also a constant dosing process too?

The basic plan with any stand alone trace element mixture is by recommended dose. It is ongoing. Not perfect, certainly, but may be better than not dosing.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I have a Pally that is currently looking a little browner than I would like...

If your Pally is not coloring up, lack of food, low iodine, or just simply not enough time in the tank might be the culprits. Food for a Pally colony is light, fine particulate or dissolved organic matter. I have more alkalinity and calcium demand than you and use All for Reef. My tank still tests low for Iodine if I don't dose it separately. It seems like Pally's and Zoas need iodine. I just dose a little Brightwell Iodine supplement weekly. Finally, it sometimes takes weeks in my tank for new Pallys/Zoas to actually fully open and color up in my tank.

I don't know how big your tank is. If it is small I would just do bigger water changes to keep everything at proper levels. If the tank is too large for that, I'd test and dose alkalinity and calcium separately, add some iodine, maybe carefully target feed something small like cyclops like once a week, and/or simply give it some more time.

 

[Hooz]

I wouldn't worry too much about trace elements at the beginning. If you use All for Reef, it does have them in it, and water changes also replenish them to an extent.

What I would recommend is to get started on All for Reef if that's what you're going to use. Get your dosing dialed in and your water change schedule figured out. Then, after a month or two of running with All for Reef and whatever maintenance schedule you decide on, I'd send in an ICP test and see where you're at with trace elements and dose as needed.

Once you get the traces "corrected", All for Reef should keep them pretty stable going forward. Especially if your All for Reef is the newer batch with extra Trace A- elements (including iodine). I'm at the point now where I do a few ICP tests per year and I correct the trace elements using the Red Sea Trace Colors additives (4 parts instead of TM's 2 part A/K solution) if needed. Since I've been using the newer All for Reef recipe, I don't have to do a lot of correcting at all.