Phytoplankton culture water?

[Hats_]

I currently culture 6 types of Phyto and this is what I have learned.
When you start a culture, you add the fert. as food for the phyto along with light. As the Phyto grows and multiplies, the fert is consumed by the phyto. Even with thalas, since you have to add silica for them to grow, they utilize that to grow and multiply. when the culture is ready, there will not be any real detectable amounts (if any at all) in the water since the phyto has used it thus, it will not go into your tank. Remember that Phyto is essentially a plant so, the main waste product of phyto will be O2, oxygen.
Also, any Nitrate or phos that is present in the phyto water, will be consumed by the phyto at some level.

the bottle i tested was 'ready to use' according to the seller. So not every source of fyto may have 0 nutrients in the water collumn.

But that the algae consumes it doesn't make it disappear. It either gets eaten and then pollutes the one that feeds on it with the trace elements and other waste. Say you feed the fyto and it gets eaten by zooplankton (i.e. copepods) then you get a process called biomagnification if you have say a mandarin dragonet that then eats the copepods, the levels of copper or whatever pollutant was absorbed in your phyto has now increased lets say 50x.

also a disclaimer that this is all in theory and I have no idea if this would go this way in a reef tank but it certainly does in nature

 

[GARRIGA]

I think the point Jay is trying to make is that people get advised to add phyto in a variety of different circumstances and that due to the nature of how it is cultured, this may worsen problems in certain cases where people are battling nutrient imbalances.

In my case for example if I have a nano tank and I buy this phyto that I tested I might cause a major nutrient spike in my system, since there is no consensus on how much to dose per x amount of tank volume, hell i have seen people dunk entire bottles in their systems of the stuff.

Also, literature tells us that barely any coral use the most common phyto (nannochloropsis) you can buy other than some gorgonians and filter feeders, so you may just be polluting the tank with no real benefit

Phyto is nothing more than single cell algae. I’ve done experiments in FW to validate the use in of single cell algae as a natural form of filtration. Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates were zero. Didn’t bother testing phosphates. Alkalinity was stable and pH remained in upper 7s.

Algae were consumed by daphnia. FW pod equivalent which were consumed by guppies until Oscars got too big and consumed those. At no point did nutrients show.

Them main source of fuel for the algae being fish waste.

Had another experiment with just single cell algae and daphnia fed spirulina which would often go yellow. Thought about using F2 but ended up needing to cancel that experiment I had a chance. Nutrients there also remained bottomed out.

Is there something in F2 not fully consumed by algae?

This tank below ran for months where 2” fingerlings were raised to 5-6” on pellets 8-12 times daily. Once water turned green it never lightened. Was actually by mistake because my green water experiments were done later based on this. This tank started as 1/3 filled with floating plants but apparently that wasn’t enough to overcome green water. Tanks were lit 12 hours daily. Aerated because plants were sucking oxygen at night.

 

[Hats_]

Phyto is nothing more than single cell algae. I’ve done experiments in FW to validate the use in f single cell algae as a natural form of filtration. Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates were zero. Didn’t bother testing phosphates. Alkalinity was stable and pH remained in upper 7s.

Algae were consumed by daphnia. FW pod equivalent which were consumed by guppies until Oscars got to big and consumed those. At no point did nutrients show.

Them main source of fuel for the algae being fish waste.

Had another experiment with just single cell algae and daphnia fed spirulina which would often go yellow. Thought about using F2 but ended up needing to cancel that experiment I had a chance. Nutrients there also remained bottomed out.

Is there something in F2 not fully consumed by algae?

This tank below ran for months where 2” fingerlings were raised to 5-6” on pellets 8-12 times daily. Once water turned green it never lightened. Was actually by mistake because my green water experiments were done later based on this. This tank started as 1/3 filled with floating plants but apparently that wasn’t enough to overcome green water. Tanks were lit 12 hours daily. Aerated because plants were sucking oxygen at night.

yea the thing i meant was that in f/2 there are a bunch of things we may not want in the tank or that may become harmful to the fish. and since most people use f/2 that's why

 

[Hats_]

Algae were consumed by daphnia. FW pod equivalent which were consumed by guppies until Oscars got too big and consumed those. At no point did nutrients show.

Wasnt about the nutrients but about the trace metals in F2 that may become more problematic when the algae that consumes it is eaten

 

[GARRIGA]

yea the thing i meant was that in f/2 there are a bunch of things we may not want in the tank or that may become harmful to the fish. and since most people use f/2 that's why

But what exactly do we not want? Got to define that before raising alarms my point. For example, copper exists naturally in sea water. Having it at low levels in the feed then taken by the algae and later by the corals might not be at detrimental levels and F2 can be constituted by self as the formula is readily available and one could tweak those ingredient yet if copper is essential to that strain of algae to be fed then there’s no getting around it and likely in every bottle commercially available. Wouldn’t be surprised if world wide all growers of algae use the same exact F2 formula.

 

[GARRIGA]

Wasnt about the nutrients but about the trace metals in F2 that may become more problematic when the algae that consumes it is eaten

Yet all life requires those trace and metals aren’t on their own detrimental. Arabic exists naturally. At what level matters as even too much oxygen can be detrimental

 

[Hats_]

But what exactly do we not want? Got to define that before raising alarms my point. For example, copper exists naturally in sea water. Having it at low levels in the feed then taken by the algae and later by the corals might not be at detrimental levels and F2 can be constituted by self as the formula is readily available and one could tweak those ingredient yet if copper is essential to that strain of algae to be fed then there’s no getting around it and likely in every bottle commercially available. Wouldn’t be surprised if world wide all growers of algae use the same exact F2 formula.

I just pointed out to find out if other people might have more information on it hence the disclaimer on the bottom.

Yet all life requires those trace and metals aren’t on their own detrimental. Arabic exists naturally. At what level matters as even too much oxygen can be detrimental

exactly, so what if the current levels of those metals that some fish consume is slowly poisoning them thanks to the Phyto. Like I'm no biologist or very good at maths so I don't know the exact numbers

 

[GARRIGA]

I just pointed out to find out if other people might have more information on it hence the disclaimer on the bottom.


exactly, so what if the current levels of those metals that some fish consume is slowly poisoning them thanks to the Phyto. Like I'm no biologist or very good at maths so I don't know the exact numbers

F2 has been widely used in aquaculture from what I discovered back on 2015. As mentioned, wouldn't be surprised if used by all culturing any strain of single cell algae although each might tweak there recipe to best suit that strain being cultured. Don't know empirically beyond seeing that some labs did alter the formula slightly. The key being if all bottled algae was raised on F2 then I'm not seeing the concern and just reflecting on the food chain where all nutrients including toxins are held until death or consumption and why I don't tend to eat large predatory fish as they tend to contain very high levels of mercury and other toxins.

Back up being one can constitute their own F2 and leave out to the extent they can those metals that might be toxic. Otherwise, fish waste a good source of nutrient for all algae.

 

[Nano_Man]

I use 100% natural pressed seaweed has nothing in it but natural seaweed and used as plant fertiliser

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Aren’t all nutrients not sequestered by the next food item in the chain? Algae feed other organisms that might feed other organisms yet each will contribute its own waste however much gained will be sequestered until death or consumption by another. If I’m understanding your point and that F2 that will be added to the tank might feed the coral’s own symbiotic algae but I’m not sure on latter. Just makes sense all algae or lower life forms might require similar nutrients.

Sure - but the nutrient broth in some algae cultures is pretty high, and that adds to the nutrient loading in a system. That may or may not be a bad thing, but it depends on the reef system, and how much phyto is being added.

It's just that sequestering is an often discounted issue....for example, people run filters, not realizing that the organic waste is trapped there and acted on by bacteria and then filters only "clean the water" when you change the media. That why I like drum filters, they export the waste multiple times a day.

 

[GARRIGA]

Sure - but the nutrient broth in some algae cultures is pretty high, and that adds to the nutrient loading in a system. That may or may not be a bad thing, but it depends on the reef system, and how much phyto is being added.

It's just that sequestering is an often discounted issue....for example, people run filters, not realizing that the organic waste is trapped there and acted on by bacteria and then filters only "clean the water" when you change the media. That why I like drum filters, they export the waste multiple times a day.

As you mentioned. Does depend on host system as some complain of not enough nutrients. From experience. No matter how much I fed fish or added spirulina including miracle grow the nutrients would be zero within hours. Have you tested your cultured? Highly doubt there’s anything registering. Test strips what I used as I wasn’t concerned with accuracy. Just presence or absence. Oddly, they worked just fine considering the water sometimes a deep green.

As for the filtration. I agree. Those socks lingering an extra day are decomposing yet that doesn’t concern me assuming one has an efficient biological filter. For example, my test tank ran two plus years without a WC, skimmer or any form of mechanical removal beyond occasional use of floss and that was only changed when clogged. Nitrates did go to the moon but carbon dosing solved yet when I ran my diy Fuge with macroalgae that bottomed out and kept phosphates in low numbers. Plants are amazing.

I honestly wouldn’t be concerned dumping F2 fed phyto knowing until consumed it would act as a filter and polish the main. Something I’ve considered doing and only negative being you have green water until consumed. Have also considered using a low micron filter to remove any beyond that I felt beneficial and something to consider. This would be removing all sequestered that didn’t move up the chain.

No clue was f the F2 itself detrimental to coral but guessing if it’s good for algae then why would it be.

I assume were one to use UV to reduce that phyto that’s where you’d have a concern as it would then dump what that algae carried. BTW, wouldn’t a skimmer help remove that dead algae before decomposition?

I know metals were discussed but is that a concern to you? Not something I’ve worried about in the past or even considered. Been almost a decade since I looked into F2 and can’t recall the ingredients.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

As you mentioned. Does depend on host system as some complain of not enough nutrients. From experience. No matter how much I fed fish or added spirulina including miracle grow the nutrients would be zero within hours. Have you tested your cultured? Highly doubt there’s anything registering. Test strips what I used as I wasn’t concerned with accuracy. Just presence or absence. Oddly, they worked just fine considering the water sometimes a deep green.

As for the filtration. I agree. Those socks lingering an extra day are decomposing yet that doesn’t concern me assuming one has an efficient biological filter. For example, my test tank ran two plus years without a WC, skimmer or any form of mechanical removal beyond occasional use of floss and that was only changed when clogged. Nitrates did go to the moon but carbon dosing solved yet when I ran my diy Fuge with macroalgae that bottomed out and kept phosphates in low numbers. Plants are amazing.

I honestly wouldn’t be concerned dumping F2 fed phyto knowing until consumed it would act as a filter and polish the main. Something I’ve considered doing and only negative being you have green water until consumed. Have also considered using a low micron filter to remove any beyond that I felt beneficial and something to consider. This would be removing all sequestered that didn’t move up the chain.

No clue was f the F2 itself detrimental to coral but guessing if it’s good for algae then why would it be.

I assume were one to use UV to reduce that phyto that’s where you’d have a concern as it would then dump what that algae carried. BTW, wouldn’t a skimmer help remove that dead algae before decomposition?

I know metals were discussed but is that a concern to you? Not something I’ve worried about in the past or even considered. Been almost a decade since I looked into F2 and can’t recall the ingredients.

I'm not too worried about the metal content of F2, I haven't worked out the details, but I don't think the amounts are too high. I would only worry about copper and zinc, but they are present in tiny amounts.

 

[Weaverjay101]

From what I've read sponges consume both the phyto as well as the biproducts they secrete. This is why I dose phyto to my sponge tank almost daily.