Please help - what disease is this?

Jay Hemdal

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When I said work, I didn’t mean cure. I meant indicate whether it is flukes or not or provide relief. I read that you probably won’t see gill flukes come off in a freshwater bath but you will for body flukes. I don’t think I saw any flukes when I did the freshwater bath, but I assumed it was due to it being gill flukes.

Ok, so even though I’m not seeing any white spots, it could be ich or velvet? Sounds like copper treatment is next step? I’ve treated with metroplex, kanaplex, and neoplex already.

I’m also seeing red gills on other fish. I assume that’s probably a symptom of many different infections.
Oh, I see, you were talking about seeing flukes in the dip - that is only possible with one species, Neobenedenia, unless you use a microscope, the others are too small to see. I tell people to just look for a relief of symptoms after a dip.

Ich pretty much always shows white spots, but they are sometimes difficult to see. Velvet’s main symptom is rapid breathing.

Red gills are not really a symptom, pale gills are. A healthy fish will have bright red gills. Gill flukes cause anemia, and the gills would be pale. Could there be erosion of the gill covers making the gills more visible? I’ve seen that before with bacterial issues.

I’m a firm supporter of using coppersafe or copper power, but I’m just not seeing it indicated here.

Jay
 
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Oh, I see, you were talking about seeing flukes in the dip - that is only possible with one species, Neobenedenia, unless you use a microscope, the others are too small to see. I tell people to just look for a relief of symptoms after a dip.

Ich pretty much always shows white spots, but they are sometimes difficult to see. Velvet’s main symptom is rapid breathing.

Red gills are not really a symptom, pale gills are. A healthy fish will have bright red gills. Gill flukes cause anemia, and the gills would be pale. Could there be erosion of the gill covers making the gills more visible? I’ve seen that before with bacterial issues.

I’m a firm supporter of using coppersafe or copper power, but I’m just not seeing it indicated here.

Jay
Thanks for your response. I don’t know if you had a chance to read through my other responses in the thread that provide additional details and photos.

Could bacterial issues cause scratching? My white tail tang did have a bacterial infection - red splotches on the body - that I treated with antibiotics. I’ve also seen some fish have white poop. Treated with metroplex, kanaplex, neoplex. Fish are not eating at this point and pretty lethargic, so really concerned.

What disease would pale gills be an indication of?

Also, how long after a single treatment of prazipro or fenbendazole would a fish stop scratching if it’s flukes? Or would a single treatment not relieve the scratching? I know it requires a second treatment a week later to kill the hatched eggs. The reason I ask is I saw scratching after a single prazipro treatment, which made me think it wasn’t flukes or that the treatment wasn’t effective.

Fluke treatments thus far:
11/7: prazipro
11/10: prazipro
11/12, 11/14, 11/15, 11/16, 11/17: Still saw scratching
11/19: Moved to new sterile tank
11/19: prazipro
11/20, 11/21, 11/22: Still saw scratching
11/26: fenbendazole 95 mg/gal in DMSO (1 ml/10 mg)
11/27, 11/28: still saw scratching

I am seeing some fast breathing but I don’t know if they’re just stressed from multiple tank moves recently. Could they have velvet without the dusty white spots?

Any suggestions for next steps?
@vetteguy53081
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Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for your response. I don’t know if you had a chance to read through my other responses in the thread that provide additional details and photos.

Could bacterial issues cause scratching? My white tail tang did have a bacterial infection - red splotches on the body - that I treated with antibiotics. I’ve also seen some fish have white poop. Treated with metroplex, kanaplex, neoplex. Fish are not eating at this point and pretty lethargic, so really concerned.

What disease would pale gills be an indication of?

Also, how long after a single treatment of prazipro or fenbendazole would a fish stop scratching if it’s flukes? Or would a single treatment not relieve the scratching? I know it requires a second treatment a week later to kill the hatched eggs. The reason I ask is I saw scratching after a single prazipro treatment, which made me think it wasn’t flukes or that the treatment wasn’t effective.

Fluke treatments thus far:
11/7: prazipro
11/10: prazipro
11/12, 11/14, 11/15, 11/16, 11/17: Still saw scratching
11/19: Moved to new sterile tank
11/19: prazipro
11/20, 11/21, 11/22: Still saw scratching
11/26: fenbendazole 95 mg/gal in DMSO (1 ml/10 mg)
11/27, 11/28: still saw scratching

I am seeing some fast breathing but I don’t know if they’re just stressed from multiple tank moves recently. Could they have velvet without the dusty white spots?

Any suggestions for next steps?
@vetteguy53081
@Jay Hemdal
@Humblefish

The fish not eating and the rapid breathing are acute symptoms. I re-read the thread, did I miss your water quality values? We need to rule that out first, as well as being sure you are aerating the tank well.

I have not seen scratching as a primary symptoms of bacterial disease, but maybe?

Oh - and don't use DMSO+Fenbendazole. DMSO is a solvent, and there are other ways to distribute chemicals into the water. What people don't understand is that when you dissolve a compound in a solvent and then add it to water, it just comes back out of solution anyway. Also, Fenbendazole has a long history of toxic reactions when dosed in aquarium water - but it very specifically kills only certain species of fish. Trouble is, there is no comprehensive list of what it is toxic to. I know that it kills flashlight fish, darters, catfish and some tetras. Most reef fish seem o.k. with it, but since it kills fish 3 to 4 days after being used, people may lose fish to it but then think the fish died from something else.

Pale gills can be caused by any disease that causes anemia: gill flukes are common, but it can also be caused by bacterial gill disease, as well as internal issues like coccidia.

Velvet (Amyloodinium) causes rapid breathing, and only shows dusty/cloudiness of the skin at very late stages. Fish often die from velvet so quickly that they never develop skin symptoms.

Was your Metroplex treatment in the water and dosed multiple times? It needs to be dosed at least 3x, 48 hours apart.

Jay
 
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The fish not eating and the rapid breathing are acute symptoms. I re-read the thread, did I miss your water quality values? We need to rule that out first, as well as being sure you are aerating the tank well.

I have not seen scratching as a primary symptoms of bacterial disease, but maybe?

Oh - and don't use DMSO+Fenbendazole. DMSO is a solvent, and there are other ways to distribute chemicals into the water. What people don't understand is that when you dissolve a compound in a solvent and then add it to water, it just comes back out of solution anyway. Also, Fenbendazole has a long history of toxic reactions when dosed in aquarium water - but it very specifically kills only certain species of fish. Trouble is, there is no comprehensive list of what it is toxic to. I know that it kills flashlight fish, darters, catfish and some tetras. Most reef fish seem o.k. with it, but since it kills fish 3 to 4 days after being used, people may lose fish to it but then think the fish died from something else.

Pale gills can be caused by any disease that causes anemia: gill flukes are common, but it can also be caused by bacterial gill disease, as well as internal issues like coccidia.

Velvet (Amyloodinium) causes rapid breathing, and only shows dusty/cloudiness of the skin at very late stages. Fish often die from velvet so quickly that they never develop skin symptoms.

Was your Metroplex treatment in the water and dosed multiple times? It needs to be dosed at least 3x, 48 hours apart.

Jay
Yes, very good aeration, 2 airstones, 2 wave makers pointed at surface, hob. I used 4 airstones during fenbendazole treatment. Ammonia badge showing yellow. Prime used as well just in case.

Metroplex dosed into water column every 48 hours at least 3x on: 11/19, 11/21, 11/23, 11/25.

I followed @Humblefish recommendations for using fenbendazole + DMSO. They do look worse after that treatment…that’s when the breathing got rapid and they stopped eating.

I feed freshly hatched baby brine shrimp in a feeder for a mandarin. Could these be irritating the bella goby and causing the scratching?
 

Jay Hemdal

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Yes, very good aeration, 2 airstones, 2 wave makers pointed at surface, hob. I used 4 airstones during fenbendazole treatment. Ammonia badge showing yellow. Prime used as well just in case.

Metroplex dosed into water column every 48 hours at least 3x on: 11/19, 11/21, 11/23, 11/25.

I followed @Humblefish recommendations for using fenbendazole + DMSO. They do look worse after that treatment…that’s when the breathing got rapid and they stopped eating.

I feed freshly hatched baby brine shrimp in a feeder for a mandarin. Could these be irritating the bella goby and causing the scratching?

Too many live baby brine shrimp in the water can cause fish to become agitated - they think they are getting attacked by crustacean parasites I think. However, that won't cause the fish to stop feeding.

One other clue - what copper product are you using? I do not trust Prime with amine-based copper products. Seachem says to not use it with Cupramine, but they apparently feel no duty to test it with products from other companies. The problem is that reducing agents like Prime might break the ammonia/copper bond, creating toxic amounts of free copper.

Jay
 
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Bella didn’t stop eating until recently after the fenbendazole treatment. She/he was eating fine before that. I’m using copper power, which I’ve read should be safe with prime. So maybe this is just the live baby brine shrimp irritating the Bella. The Bella eats from the baby brine shrimp feeder too. Could the live baby brine cause both the scratching and yawning? Maybe they’re just irritating the gills?
 

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@Jay Hemdal
My fish are very lethargic and not eating since the fenbendazole treatment. I’m really really worried. Is there anything I can do to help them?
Can you try linking a video to YouTube? I really need to see how the fish are behaving.
With fenbendazole reactions, the fish just die about 3 days after treatment, with no prior symptoms. Your fish may have something else going on.

Jay
 
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@Jay Hemdal



I see one white spot on the clowns face and some on the damsel. I’m not sure if it’s sand or infection.
I’ve now lost two fish who were both breathing rapidly. Several fish have developed frayed fins as well. I saw my valentini puffer scratch on decor today. Fish are lethargic, spending time at bottom of tank, sitting or laying, and hiding. Not eating. I wasn’t seeing these symptoms until after the fenbendazole treatment, which made me think it was stress, but it’s been 5 days since the fenbendazole treatment on 11/26. They were moved twice after that to new tanks, which also could be the source of additional stress.
IMG_9678.jpeg

IMG_9681.jpeg
 
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@Jay Hemdal



I see one white spot on the clowns face and some on the damsel. I’m not sure if it’s sand or infection.
I’ve now lost two fish who were both breathing rapidly. Several fish have developed frayed fins as well. I saw my valentini puffer scratch on decor today. Fish are lethargic, spending time at bottom of tank, sitting or laying, and hiding. Not eating. I wasn’t seeing these symptoms until after the fenbendazole treatment, which made me think it was stress, but it’s been 5 days since the fenbendazole treatment on 11/26. They were moved twice after that to new tanks, which also could be the source of additional stress.
IMG_9678.jpeg

IMG_9681.jpeg

@Jay Hemdal
Just did a FW bath for clown. Are these flukes? Can’t tell if it’s sand. White spot came off clowns face so I assume it was sand. White pieces in container feel like sand.
IMG_9682.jpeg
 
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Jay Hemdal

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@Jay Hemdal
Just did a FW bath for clown. Are these flukes? Can’t tell if it’s sand. White spot came off clowns face so I assume it was sand. White pieces in container feel like sand.
IMG_9682.jpeg

That looks like sand. Flukes look like gray ovals, like fish scales. There are other flukes that are too small to see without a microscope though.

The fish in the video are all in a really bad way. Trouble is, I have no way to tell you exactly what the problem is. It could be a reaction to the fenbendazole (unlikely). The fish have been moved into new tanks, could there be ammonia issues? The clown could have Brooklynella or Amyloodinium/Velvet. The rapid breathing and not eating in the other fish makes me think velvet as well.

I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't think this is going to end well. I've lost track, what is the status of the fish in regards to copper?

Jay
 
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That looks like sand. Flukes look like gray ovals, like fish scales. There are other flukes that are too small to see without a microscope though.

The fish in the video are all in a really bad way. Trouble is, I have no way to tell you exactly what the problem is. It could be a reaction to the fenbendazole (unlikely). The fish have been moved into new tanks, could there be ammonia issues? The clown could have Brooklynella or Amyloodinium/Velvet. The rapid breathing and not eating in the other fish makes me think velvet as well.

I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't think this is going to end well. I've lost track, what is the status of the fish in regards to copper?

Jay
Just raised copper to 2.24 via Hanna checker. Clown died. Ammonia badge is yellow. Tested with API yesterday and it was zero. I’m also thinking velvet. Fish are breathing heavier from the copper I assume, but I don’t know what else to do. Could velvet cause frayed fins?
 
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Just raised copper to 2.24 via Hanna checker. Clown died. Ammonia badge is yellow. Tested with API yesterday and it was zero. I’m also thinking velvet. Fish are breathing heavier from the copper I assume, but I don’t know what else to do. Could velvet cause frayed fins?

No - the frayed fins would be unrelated to the rapid breathing. That is usually caused by mechanical damage, like from fighting.

Jay
 
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No - the frayed fins would be unrelated to the rapid breathing. That is usually caused by mechanical damage, like from fighting.

Jay
I guess I’ll know it’s not brookynella if the copper doesn’t help? If it’s brookynella, I’d need to do formaldehyde baths? Can damaged fins be fin rot from a secondary infection from velvet?

I ideally would have liked to raise copper slowly, but it doesn’t seem like there’s time to do that at this point, so it was probably brought up faster than is ideal for the fish. Thoughts?
 

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I guess I’ll know it’s not brookynella if the copper doesn’t help? If it’s brookynella, I’d need to do formaldehyde baths? Can damaged fins be fin rot from a secondary infection from velvet?

I ideally would have liked to raise copper slowly, but it doesn’t seem like there’s time to do that at this point, so it was probably brought up faster than is ideal for the fish. Thoughts?

No need to raise the copper slowly if you are using coppersafe, that only applies to ionic copper.

Fin rot is usually secondary bacterial infections stemming from an original injury.

Jay
 
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No need to raise the copper slowly if you are using coppersafe, that only applies to ionic copper.

Fin rot is usually secondary bacterial infections stemming from an original injury.

Jay
Ok, I’m using copper power, which I understand isn’t ionic and is similar to coppersafe. What’s so weird is that these are actually established fish that I’ve had for over a year that I thought got sick from new fish cross contamination from a qt tank that I stupidly didn’t have 6 feet away from them, so I put the established fish into a second qt to treat. The original qt fish seem fine. I guess all the stress from the treatments and tank moves stressed them out and caused the infection to get worse. I’m treating all tanks that could’ve been cross contaminated with copper to be safe.
 
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No need to raise the copper slowly if you are using coppersafe, that only applies to ionic copper.

Fin rot is usually secondary bacterial infections stemming from an original injury.

Jay
@Jay Hemdal

If I want to treat for brookynella in the qt tank, I can dose formaldehyde 37% + methanol 15% at 1 ml/10 gallons daily, correct? I read it needs to be bare bottom, so no sand? Does the sand absorb the formaldehyde? Also, how many days would I need to dose to eradicate brook? Also, I currently am running copper power at 2.25 ppm. Thanks for your help.
 

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@Jay Hemdal

If I want to treat for brookynella in the qt tank, I can dose formaldehyde 37% + methanol 15% at 1 ml/10 gallons daily, correct? I read it needs to be bare bottom, so no sand? Does the sand absorb the formaldehyde? Also, how many days would I need to dose to eradicate brook? Also, I currently am running copper power at 2.25 ppm. Thanks for your help.

For an accurate dose, it is 0.95 ml of formalin in 10 gallons of water to give a 25 ppm dose. I would dose that twice, 24 hours apart, and then every 48 hours after that until control is seen. You can go daily, but IMO, what happens is that the normal daily dose is 15 to 25 ppm, and you need to be at the top end of that. Formalin de-gasses at about 25 ppm/day. However, it often doesn't totally de-gas in that time, so you end up running about 30 ppm and that is too high for some fish.

No need to remove the sand, but provide strong aeration.

Remember that this off-gasses, and that is going to happen in your home. Best if the tank was in a room with the door closed, or with good ventilation. Use proper PPE when handling it.

Here is the kicker - Ionic copper and formalin is o.k. to do, but is a bit stressful to the fish. However, I have not mixed copper power and formalin. Formalin is a reducing agent. It *might* be able to break the amine-copper bond in Copper Power. If it does, then toxic free copper would be released. I would play it safe and not dose it with copper at the same time.

Jay
 

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