Please help - what disease is this?

[WrasseyReefer]

For an accurate dose, it is 0.95 ml of formalin in 10 gallons of water to give a 25 ppm dose. I would dose that twice, 24 hours apart, and then every 48 hours after that until control is seen. You can go daily, but IMO, what happens is that the normal daily dose is 15 to 25 ppm, and you need to be at the top end of that. Formalin de-gasses at about 25 ppm/day. However, it often doesn't totally de-gas in that time, so you end up running about 30 ppm and that is too high for some fish.

No need to remove the sand, but provide strong aeration.

Remember that this off-gasses, and that is going to happen in your home. Best if the tank was in a room with the door closed, or with good ventilation. Use proper PPE when handling it.

Here is the kicker - Ionic copper and formalin is o.k. to do, but is a bit stressful to the fish. However, I have not mixed copper power and formalin. Formalin is a reducing agent. It *might* be able to break the amine-copper bond in Copper Power. If it does, then toxic free copper would be released. I would play it safe and not dose it with copper at the same time.

Jay

@Jay Hemdal

I’m about 56 hours into copper safe at 2.24, dropped to 2.15, added a little to get it back up to 2.22. My clownfish has been very lethargic, staying in a tube all day, has come out only a few times. Just swims inside the tube and lays down then swims inside the tube again. Hasn’t been eating at all. Not showing any dusting, spots, slime, peeling, or sloughing. Breathing doesn’t seem crazy rapid. Difficult to count breaths/min with her fluttering. Also, yesterday, I saw her have a thin green poop. Don’t know what this means. I imagine as long as it’s not white. Just really concerned with the intermittent laying down on her side and the lack of eating. Also continuing treatment with metroplex, kanaplex, neoplex. Some other fish are starting to eat again. Ammonia badge still yellow. 2 airstones, 2 wave makers pointed at top, hob. I have new formaldehyde coming Wednesday just in case this is brookynella and not ich/velvet. Is there anything I can do to help her or get her to eat? I’m feeding frozen brine, mysis, marine cuisine, using selcon and garlic power.

Question is, at what point into the copper treatment should I be concerned if the clown doesn’t start eating and acting less lethargic that this isn’t ich/velvet and that I should shift gears to possibly treating with formaldehyde for brookynella? (Since you said you don’t recommend using copper power and formaldehyde together in the qt, and I’m concerned about removing the clown (and possibly others) to do a formaldehyde bath given how weak the clown seems and how much moving them seems to stress them). I know you said that copper should typically work in 3 days, so I’m hoping my clownfish will start eating and acting less lethargic around the 72 hour mark tomorrow. I assume this isn’t flukes, since they’ve gone through prazipro and fenbendazole treatments, but maybe it’s possible that the treatments I did weren’t enough. I provided the exact dates with flukes treatments in a separate response within this thread for reference. Thanks again for your help with my questions. Just trying to plan ahead. I’ll post some video tomorrow when the lights back on if she’s still acting the same.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The thin green poop is bile staining and can be a result of liver disfunction or starvation.

Coppersafe begins to show improvement in fish around 3 days, if it is the correct medication. However, you may have multiple issues going on here. The clownfish not eating and with green feces may not be related.

Jay

 

[WrasseyReefer]

The thin green poop is bile staining and can be a result of liver disfunction or starvation.

Coppersafe begins to show improvement in fish around 3 days, if it is the correct medication. However, you may have multiple issues going on here. The clownfish not eating and with green feces may not be related.

Jay

Clownfish ate!!! I’m so happy! Seems like the copper is working and we have the right treatment. I’m elated. Thank you so much for all of your help and responses. Seems like the 3 days for copper to work is accurate. Woohoo! So I’ll do 30 days of copper power above 2.0ppm via Hanna checker. I’ll try to keep it around 2.25 ppm to be safe. Then I’ll remove the copper via carbon/polyfilter. Thanks again!

 

[WrasseyReefer]

@Jay Hemdal
Hi Jay, sorry to keep bothering you. Just trying to stay proactive. While she did eat earlier today, and that’s a huge leap forward, she’s still exhibiting lethargy and hiding. Before she was laying down sometimes. I think that has also improved. Here’s a video. Please excuse the haze from the bacteria on the glass that I need to scrape off. Is it possible we have the right treatment, but it’ll just take some more time for her to regain her energy back after not eating for like a week? Is it possible she has brook without the slime/peeling/sloughing? I really don’t want to remove her for a formaldehyde bath unless absolutely necessary since the moves seem to really stress them out. I also read that copper can kind of alleviate brook but not eliminate it, so I’m wondering if her eating improvement could be from the copper alleviating brook and not velvet. I know we can’t know for sure what this is, but I’m hoping you might have some insights on the most likely disease based on your experience and seeing her in the video. Are there certain symptoms I should look for to distinguish between brookynella and velvet besides sloughing/peeling/sliming for brook (which I’m not seeing)? Thanks again so much for your help.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

The thin green poop is bile staining and can be a result of liver disfunction or starvation.

Coppersafe begins to show improvement in fish around 3 days, if it is the correct medication. However, you may have multiple issues going on here. The clownfish not eating and with green feces may not be related.

Jay

Additional video of clownfish after glass cleaned. Her appetite still isn’t great. Fish are still hiding a lot. I’m seeing small, slow improvements. Sorry for so many questions. I’m just really worried about them.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Additional video of clownfish after glass cleaned. Her appetite still isn’t great. Fish are still hiding a lot. I’m seeing small, slow improvements. Sorry for so many questions. I’m just really worried about them.

The clownfish looks a lot better in the second video than in the first, not sure why.

Have you started formalin dosing yet?

Jay

 

[WrasseyReefer]

The clownfish looks a lot better in the second video than in the first, not sure why.

Have you started formalin dosing yet?

Jay

I have not started formalin dosing. I am only treating with copper and antibiotics. You said not to dose formalin with copper power, so I’m not. The second video was taken about 2 hours after the first. I had just fed in the second video, so maybe it got her more active, even though she didn’t eat during that feeding. She only ate in the first feeding earlier in the day. Can it be brook without the peeling, sliming, sloughing symptoms? Are there other symptoms to distinguish between velvet and brook? Or is there something else you think this could be? Could copper alleviate brook symptoms?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have not started formalin dosing. I am only treating with copper and antibiotics. You said not to dose formalin with copper power, so I’m not. The second video was taken about 2 hours after the first. I had just fed in the second video, so maybe it got her more active, even though she didn’t eat during that feeding. She only ate in the first feeding and earlier in the day. Can it be brook without the peeling, sliming, sloughing symptoms? Are there other symptoms to distinguish velvet and brook?

I was just suggesting that you not dose the copper and formalin at the same time, you'll need to decide which direction to go. Velvet causes rapid breathing, hanging in water currents and not eating. Brooklynella starts with cloudy skin, then sheets of mucus begin to trail off the fish and it stops eating and begins swimming really stiffly.
The problem is - if you showed me the two videos, I would say the first one is Brooklynella and the second one is velvet.....

Jay

 

[WrasseyReefer]

I was just suggesting that you not dose the copper and formalin at the same time, you'll need to decide which direction to go. Velvet causes rapid breathing, hanging in water currents and not eating. Brooklynella starts with cloudy skin, then sheets of mucus begin to trail off the fish and it stops eating and begins swimming really stiffly.
The problem is - if you showed me the two videos, I would say the first one is Brooklynella and the second one is velvet.....

Jay

What about the first video indicates brook vs velvet for the second? I don’t see any cloudy skin or mucus. Any cloudiness seen in the first video is from dirty glass but not on the fish. Does brook always show the mucus? If so, I haven’t seen that at all. I’ve read copper can alleviate symptoms of brook. If the copper seems to be helping, does this for sure indicate velvet or could it be alleviating symptoms of brook? Also, I know brook mainly effects clowns and damsels, which I’ve shown here. I know it can effect other fish too. Just want to let you know I’ve lost 5 fish to whatever this is, 4 of which were not clowns/damsels. I don’t know if this makes any difference in your diagnosis. Also, it seems my excitement with the clown eating yesterday was short lived, as she doesn’t seem to really be eating much. Maybe a bite.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

What about the first video indicates brook vs velvet for the second? I don’t see any cloudy skin or mucus. Any cloudiness seen in the first video is from dirty glass but not on the fish. Does brook always show the mucus? If so, I haven’t seen that at all. I’ve read copper can alleviate symptoms of brook. If the copper seems to be helping, does this for sure indicate velvet or could it be alleviating symptoms of brook? Also, I know brook mainly effects clowns and damsels, which I’ve shown here. I know it can effect other fish too. Just want to let you know I’ve lost 5 fish to whatever this is, 4 of which were not clowns/damsels. I don’t know if this makes any difference in your diagnosis. Also, it seems my excitement with the clown eating yesterday was short lived, as she doesn’t seem to really be eating much. Maybe a bite.

Third video to maybe serve as a tie breaker. Noticed what looks like a possible yawn at minute 1:25. Could yawning be anything other than flukes?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What about the first video indicates brook vs velvet for the second? I don’t see any cloudy skin or mucus. Any cloudiness seen in the first video is from dirty glass but not on the fish. Does brook always show the mucus? If so, I haven’t seen that at all. I’ve read copper can alleviate symptoms of brook. If the copper seems to be helping, does this for sure indicate velvet or could it be alleviating symptoms of brook? Also, I know brook mainly effects clowns and damsels, which I’ve shown here. I know it can effect other fish too. Just want to let you know I’ve lost 5 fish to whatever this is, 4 of which were not clowns/damsels. I don’t know if this makes any difference in your diagnosis. Also, it seems my excitement with the clown eating yesterday was short lived, as she doesn’t seem to really be eating much. Maybe a bite.

Stiff swimming in the first video and rapid breathing in the second one.

I’ve never had copper help with Brook, and I’m a big fan of using coppersafe, just not for this issue. Works fine for velvet though.

If other fish are dying before clownfish, I think you can use that as a clue to start to rule out Brook - the clowns should be getting hit the hardest.

Jay

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Stiff swimming in the first video and rapid breathing in the second one.

I’ve never had copper help with Brook, and I’m a big fan of using coppersafe, just not for this issue. Works fine for velvet though.

If other fish are dying before clownfish, I think you can use that as a clue to start to rule out Brook - the clowns should be getting hit the hardest.

Jay

I want to make sure I understand what you’re saying in your second section. You said you’re “a big fan of using coppersafe, just not for this issue.” If I’m interpreting correctly, you’re saying copper is not a treatment for brookynella. I agree and understand that. What I was saying is that I previously read that copper can relieve (not cure) symptoms of brook, but it sounds like you’re saying that’s not your experience, which is helpful to know. If copper does not temporarily relieve/help with symptoms of brook, then it sounds like I can rule out brook if copper helps their symptoms get better, and it seems like copper is helping with symptoms a bit given the clown ate 3 days after copper started. I just would like symptoms to improve quicker. I’m very impatient, as you can probably tell. Today is day 4 of copper. I guess I just need to be more patient with seeing improvements? A good sign is that no new fish have died since starting copper. All deaths were before copper dosing began. I’m mostly concerned about copper “suppressing” symptoms of something else other than velvet, but it’s not sounding like that could be the case from what you’re telling me. I don’t want to be treating the wrong infection, obviously.

Also, I don’t know if this information will help you at all, but these fish I’ve been showing you in videos were established fish I’ve had for well over a year. The way they got sick was from contamination from a separate qt I have running with new fish that I bought about 1-2 months ago, probably from their tanks being less than 6 feet away from each other. The new fish are mostly wrasses, several gobies, and an anthias. I point this out, because I’m wondering the likelihood of these types of fish bringing in brook vs velvet. My understanding is that wrasses with their thick slime coat can be asymptomatic for velvet but transmit it to other more susceptible fish. I don’t know about this with brook. I haven’t really noticed any symptoms with the new qt fish, maybe a scratch on the sand from the leopards but I also know sometimes they do this to find crustaceans in the sand, so it’s hard to tell if it’s flashing. I did have a pintail wrasse that died in the new qt about a month ago that was exhibiting scratching, heavy breathing, head shaking, erratic swimming, swimming vertically facing upwards (spinal injury?), eventual lethargy, and death. I thought it might have been flukes, but it could’ve been where the velvet came from. Death was about 30 days ago on 11/3.

Fish (established, non-new fish) deaths in order of occurrence:
1. Hawkfish
2. Wrasse
3. Male Clownfish (female clownfish and blue damsel still alive)
4. Firefish
5. Goby

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Stiff swimming in the first video and rapid breathing in the second one.

I’ve never had copper help with Brook, and I’m a big fan of using coppersafe, just not for this issue. Works fine for velvet though.

If other fish are dying before clownfish, I think you can use that as a clue to start to rule out Brook - the clowns should be getting hit the hardest.

Jay

Now my wrasse is breathing heavily and resting at the bottom. Could this be an indication that the copper isn’t the right treatment? Or is it possible that it is the right treatment but some fish may still not make it?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I want to make sure I understand what you’re saying in your second section. You said you’re “a big fan of using coppersafe, just not for this issue.” If I’m interpreting correctly, you’re saying copper is not a treatment for brookynella. I agree and understand that. What I was saying is that I previously read that copper can relieve (not cure) symptoms of brook, but it sounds like you’re saying that’s not your experience, which is helpful to know. If copper does not temporarily relieve/help with symptoms of brook, then it sounds like I can rule out brook if copper helps their symptoms get better, and it seems like copper is helping with symptoms a bit given the clown ate 3 days after copper started. I just would like symptoms to improve quicker. I’m very impatient, as you can probably tell. Today is day 4 of copper. I guess I just need to be more patient with seeing improvements? A good sign is that no new fish have died since starting copper. All deaths were before copper dosing began. I’m mostly concerned about copper “suppressing” symptoms of something else other than velvet, but it’s not sounding like that could be the case from what you’re telling me. I don’t want to be treating the wrong infection, obviously.

Also, I don’t know if this information will help you at all, but these fish I’ve been showing you in videos were established fish I’ve had for well over a year. The way they got sick was from contamination from a separate qt I have running with new fish that I bought about 1-2 months ago, probably from their tanks being less than 6 feet away from each other. The new fish are mostly wrasses, several gobies, and an anthias. I point this out, because I’m wondering the likelihood of these types of fish bringing in brook vs velvet. My understanding is that wrasses with their thick slime coat can be asymptomatic for velvet but transmit it to other more susceptible fish. I don’t know about this with brook. I haven’t really noticed any symptoms with the new qt fish, maybe a scratch on the sand from the leopards but I also know sometimes they do this to find crustaceans in the sand, so it’s hard to tell if it’s flashing. I did have a pintail wrasse that died in the new qt about a month ago that was exhibiting scratching, heavy breathing, head shaking, erratic swimming, swimming vertically facing upwards (spinal injury?), eventual lethargy, and death. I thought it might have been flukes, but it could’ve been where the velvet came from. Death was about 30 days ago on 11/3.

Fish (established, non-new fish) deaths in order of occurrence:
1. Hawkfish
2. Wrasse
3. Male Clownfish (female clownfish and blue damsel still alive)
4. Firefish
5. Goby

Correct, I’ve never had copper work for brooklynella - either as a cure or seeming to even slow it down. FW dips can buy you some time though.

Without a microscope, any diagnosis is going to be provisional. What we end up doing here a lot is diagnose based on what treatment seems to be working - the fact that fish were dying before copper and now are not, is an example of that.

Not sure where you heard that wrasse are resistant to velvet, or can just be carriers - they are quite prone to dying from it.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Now my wrasse is breathing heavily and resting at the bottom. Could this be an indication that the copper isn’t the right treatment? Or is it possible that it is the right treatment but some fish may still not make it?

Sorry - no way to know. This issue causes a lot of what I call “hunt and peck” treatments - a person tries one treatment, then another, then another. It is then difficult to tell if the treatments or failing or if they just weren’t given enough time.

That said - if fish seem to get better during a treatment, but then backslide, that is a sign that the treatment isn’t working, or there is a second underlying disease at work.

Jay

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Sorry - no way to know. This issue causes a lot of what I call “hunt and peck” treatments - a person tries one treatment, then another, then another. It is then difficult to tell if the treatments or failing or if they just weren’t given enough time.

That said - if fish seem to get better during a treatment, but then backslide, that is a sign that the treatment isn’t working, or there is a second underlying disease at work.

Jay

Ok, thanks. I guess I figured if I provided as much info as possible that it would help us determine the culprit, but I know we can’t know for sure. This is just so stressful and frustrating.

Also, what’s your opinion on these Seachem ammonia badges? It’s still showing yellow, zero ammonia. It’s not old, as I know it says it only lasts a year, or brand new, as I know they say they have a few day break in period. I tested with API, and it reads 1.0 ppm ammonia. My understanding is that the ammonia badge only reads free ammonia, which is the one toxic to fish. While API shows total ammonia. Is this correct? I’ve added prime just to be safe. I also tested with Seachem multi test ammonia for free and total. It’s showing there is total ammonia but no free ammonia.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Sorry - no way to know. This issue causes a lot of what I call “hunt and peck” treatments - a person tries one treatment, then another, then another. It is then difficult to tell if the treatments or failing or if they just weren’t given enough time.

That said - if fish seem to get better during a treatment, but then backslide, that is a sign that the treatment isn’t working, or there is a second underlying disease at work.

Jay

Any alternative treatments for brook?

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Is it possible that the wrasse is sensitive to the copper and not handling the copper well? I’ve read that wrasses can be sensitive to copper. Or that the wrasse was already too sick before the copper started and so wasn’t able to recover?

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Sorry - no way to know. This issue causes a lot of what I call “hunt and peck” treatments - a person tries one treatment, then another, then another. It is then difficult to tell if the treatments or failing or if they just weren’t given enough time.

That said - if fish seem to get better during a treatment, but then backslide, that is a sign that the treatment isn’t working, or there is a second underlying disease at work.

Jay

New video, new photos, another fish, new symptom. Royal gramma, white patch on left side near tail. Tried to get a clear of a shot as possible. Would this be bacterial, fungal, peeling? Or a possible symptom of either brook or velvet to help distinguish? Thank you again so much for your help!

Current treatments: 2.25 copper safe via Hanna checker day 4, metroplex, kanaplex, neoplex.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

New video, new photos, another fish, new symptom. Royal gramma, white patch on left side near tail. Tried to get a clear of a shot as possible. Would this be bacterial, fungal, peeling? Or a possible symptom of either brook or velvet to help distinguish? Thank you again so much for your help!

Current treatments: 2.25 copper safe via Hanna checker day 4, metroplex, kanaplex, neoplex.

That spot isn't velvet. It seems to be a minor mucus build-up, either from an injury, or possibly a mild Brook infection. The tips of the Gramma's pelvic fins are also a bit eroded, unsure why.

I'd say that this confirms that you have more than one issue going on; the acute fish deaths stopped with copper, so that cured something, but then, these lingering symptoms are here.

I do not see anything in the gramma video that shows me that its issue is immediately treatable. What I mean is that I've seen fish that looked similar in quarantine, and just didn't worry about it and they ended up being fine. If it worsens, then of course I would change up the treatment.

Jay