Question for the high phos/high nitrate gang out there

[benmed]

The basic question is: are we just trying to help our corals adapt to our specific nitrate/phosphate levels in our specific tanks? Because it seems that some people are very successful with high phos and others are successful with low phos?

So I’m trying to figure out how closely to chase numbers. There is the group of people who say phos under 0.05 and nitrates under 30. But there are a lot of people out there who say: don’t chase the numbers.

The rationale for the low phos, low nitrate group is that mimics the ocean. Buuuut, we are not recreating the ocean. Just way way way more complex than we can recreate.

For those of you who run very high phos and nitrate, what happens when you place a new frag from the store (that runs lower parameters) into your tank? Is it more important to understand what parameters a new frag is coming from to determine whether it is likely to be successful in your tank?

Thanks

 

[Cichlid Dad]

The basic question is: are we just trying to help our corals adapt to our specific nitrate/phosphate levels in our specific tanks? Because it seems that some people are very successful with high phos and others are successful with low phos?

So I’m trying to figure out how closely to chase numbers. There is the group of people who say phos under 0.05 and nitrates under 30. But there are a lot of people out there who say: don’t chase the numbers.

The rationale for the low phos, low nitrate group is that mimics the ocean. Buuuut, we are not recreating the ocean. Just way way way more complex than we can recreate.

For those of you who run very high phos and nitrate, what happens when you place a new frag from the store (that runs lower parameters) into your tank? Is it more important to understand what parameters a new frag is coming from to determine whether it is likely to be successful in your tank?

Thanks

I just don't worry about it. I actually find I color up browned out coral and get deeper color on my acro. It's a combination of nutrients, flow and light. All three need to be in sync . More nutrition needs more light, needs more flow.

 

[Klemmetsmo]

Here is my take on it.

Pick a zone you like to run your tank at and where your tank looks the best. For example, my tank currently is po4 = .18 and nitrates = 30. This might be crazy high for some people, but my tank looks outstanding. I’m not worried about my levels, but ideally I like my po4 under .1 and nitrates under 20. I’m very very slowly working on this and wouldn’t let things go any further. So I have my limits…

As for buying corals, and them thriving in your tank, all corals have a “break in” period. They will adjust to your water - same with them adjusting to your lighting. The key is stability so the corals know what to adjust to. If your water is all over the place you can imagine this would be stressful for any coral, let alone new ones.

 

[apb03]

I think I fit into the high nutrients crowd. I am currently at around 40ppm nitrate and 0.1phos but that's only because I run GFO.

For many months I tried everything I could to bring my nutrients down and I still dose the 16ml a day if nopox to keep my nutrients stable where they are with 15% weekly water changes.

I run mostly sps with a ton of acros.
After failing to get my nutrients down to numbers widely accepted as optimal over the span of many months, I decided to stop worrying about my nutrient levels and just focus on stability and maintenance (steady water chanes, etc) instead. I was spending tons of money and was having issues in my tank.

Since then my Corals have been doing great and I've decided nutrients are nothing to worry about, just let them be where they are.

Besides, high nutrients are easier. You can carbon dose, feed a lot, run your gear aggressively and not worry about starving your Corals, STN/RTN and whatever else. I can also run my lights way higher too.

As far as adding Corals go, I don't do anything different. I toss them right in, no problems so far.

 

[jmoney7]

I can’t run high nutrients because I have had a hair algae problem for months

 

[Hans-Werner]

or those of you who run very high phos and nitrate, what happens when you place a new frag from the store (that runs lower parameters) into your tank? Is it more important to understand what parameters a new frag is coming from to determine whether it is likely to be successful in your tank?

I think it is rather the other way round: When I received wild captured Acroporas a short time after import in the 90s the adaptation of the corals posed no problem, rather they seemded to make a growth spurt.

Now with more bred corals or when I bought Acroporas that were at the shop under suspected high nutrient conditions (visible as dark colors and greening of exposed parts of skeletons) it seems much more difficult to me to adapt them to lower nutrient conditions and to get them grow. They seem to need continued higher nutrient conditions. It is what I call the "memory effect of the coral skeleton" because it seems like an inhibition of calcification and growth presumably directly at the calcifying sites of the skeletons.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So I’m trying to figure out how closely to chase numbers. There is the group of people who say phos under 0.05 and nitrates under 30. But there are a lot of people out there who say: don’t chase the numbers.

I do not believe we have an answer to some of these questions. Here's a copy and paste from another recent thread on a mostly different topic:

For example, a super common topic is what levels of nitrate and phosphate are suitable and/or best. There are threads about this almost every day. I don't want to make this thread about a particular chemistry topic, but it exemplifies a case where there is a lot of conflicting info around, even from experts that keep great tanks and are very well versed in the complexity of the issue. The fact that experts may disagree and provide evidence that disagrees can lead some folks to falsely assume anything is OK, when in reality, it may be the unspoken parts of the question are what matters most.

There are dozens of tables of optimal parameters floating around, including from me, and while I understand that folks want a simple table, I'm convinced that such tables may sometimes do a disservice because the optimal values may relate strongly not only to what is in the tank (which most reefers accept) but also what else is happening in the tank (which I'm not sure most reefers do generally think about, and usually is not part of the question or the answers provided).

In the nutrient case, for example, there are different definitions of what the question is really asking about:

1. Coral Color
2. Coral growth rate
3. Coral health (resistance to disease, RTN, STN, etc.)
4. Prevention of pests (algae, cyano, dinos, diatoms, etc.)

All organisms must get N and P from somewhere. But it can be a mistake to assume that any given organism gets most or all of it from nitrate and phosphate, since there are many other sources:

1. Orthophosphate, nitrate
2. Ammonia
3. Various other dissolved inorganic phosphate forms (essentially two or more phosphates chained together
4. Dissolved organic compounds providing N and P
5. Particulate organic materials (such as whole phyto or bacteria) providing N and P

Since the amount of ALL of those will vary from tank to tank, it may be oversimplified to focus only on the easy to measure sources (nitrate and phosphate):

When jda says his reef tank does best with very low nitrate (0.1 ppm) and phosphate (1-3 ppb) , it may well be due to his heavy in heavy out philosophy which boosts all of 2-5, and that same answer may not apply to different feeding plans or husbandry aspects.

When Hans-Werner Balling says to keep phosphate at 0.1 ppm and nitrate and other nitrogen compounds as low as possible, his intent to to defeat algae while allowing corals to grow.

When Thales keeps his reef tank at up to 100 ppm nitrate and 1 ppm phosphate, he has observed little difference in the visual observation of his reef aquarium when he has changed levels to lower values.

So what nitrate and phosphate values are best?

 

[benmed]

I have not had the experience of just tossing corals in and just watching them thrive. My experience is much more anxiety driven as I cross fingers and pray to Poseidon. I have very hardy corals such as zoa die within a week and what are apparently difficult things like acros do just fine. It’s frustrating that I can’t predict what will do well despite keeping my numbers stable (within reason I think), measuring par, and being very consistent about my feeding schedule with the use of auto feeders.

 

[Brian1f1]

I can’t run high nutrients because I have had a hair algae problem for months

I beat GHA totally by reducing phos modestly and slowly (still too high, only recently sub .5, now prob .15 or so). I went hard on CUC and they annihilated GHA. Combination of pincushion and tux urchins, turbo snails at 1 per 4 gallons of display, some ninja star snails, and probably 140 blue leg and a couple dozen scarlet crabs, a few emeralds too. Finally I got the flow right with another wavemaker and a lot of fine tuning.

My nitrate was bottomed out. I actually dose now to get to currently only 5… but that also helped with gha by fueling my chaeto and my corals.

 

[jmoney7]

I beat GHA totally by reducing phos modestly and slowly (still too high, only recently sub .5, now prob .15 or so). I went hard on CUC and they annihilated GHA. Combination of pincushion and tux urchins, turbo snails at 1 per 4 gallons of display, some ninja star snails, and probably 140 blue leg and a couple dozen scarlet crabs, a few emeralds too. Finally I got the flow right with another wavemaker and a lot of fine tuning.

My nitrate was bottomed out. I actually dose now to get to currently only 5… but that also helped with gha by fueling my chaeto and my corals.

I just added tuxedo urchin and I have probably a dozen hermits but all my snails have died cause they flip and won't flip themselves back. I also am running phosgaurd in my tank and manual removal as well. What size is your tank

 

[jda]

The easy answer is that it is a type-of-corals thing. Not all are going to be OK as waste products rise, but some will do OK and others will not care at all. In every type of corals, this is true... softies, LPS, acros, MPB&S, etc. all have some that do well with 1.0 of po4 and 100 of no3 and some that will start to melt away or RTN at 0.1 and 10.

The hard answer is that it is hard...