Red Sea Liquid Calcium and High Strontium?

[DeputyDog95]

I've been dosing the RS liquid foundation A&B for a long time now. SPS only tank...

I recently started playing w pH, and now w an avg of 8.3, my Alk and Ca demand have skyrocketed over the past few months.

Gone from 17Ca/50Alk ml per day to 50Ca/150Alk ml per day.

Unfortunately, the Strontium is bundled with the Ca and the Strontium has skyrocketed as well with it consistently being over 16 now. I've had a few ICP tests and they all read high these days.

Not sure what to do... I don't dose Strontium individually and the only source I'm using that I'm aware of is the RS liquid Ca.

Thoughts?

 

[blaxsun]

Switch to a different calcium...?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, Red Sea did not design their additive system for 1:1 dosing so it is expected to dose more alk than calcium.

Strontium and calcium are deposited into calcium carbonate at a fixed rate that depends on the relative concentration of each. I’ve not heard of folks getting excessive strontium with this product, but if you believe it’s the source, I’d just try a different calcium additive for a while and see what happens.

 

[GoVols]

FWIW, Red Sea did not design their additive system for 1:1 dosing so it is expected to dose more alk than calcium.

Strontium and calcium are deposited into calcium carbonate at a fixed rate that depends on the relative concentration of each. I’ve not heard of folks getting excessive strontium with this product, but if you believe it’s the source, I’d just try a different calcium additive for a while and see what happens.

FWIW
Their liquid form of their B has a higher concentration amount of alk, than their dry to mix form of alk B.

Just tossing it out on the table...

 

[DeputyDog95]

FWIW, Red Sea did not design their additive system for 1:1 dosing so it is expected to dose more alk than calcium.

Strontium and calcium are deposited into calcium carbonate at a fixed rate that depends on the relative concentration of each. I’ve not heard of folks getting excessive strontium with this product, but if you believe it’s the source, I’d just try a different calcium additive for a while and see what happens.

Agreed. No issues with the ratio. It's falling right into the 3 to 1 (Alk to Ca) as prescribed by RS I'm dosing 150ml of alk and 50 ml of Ca, daily, with some Kalk supplementation at night.

I just can't imagine what else it could be. I dose their trace colors but as far as I know, there isn't any Sr in them.

If I switch to a straight Ca product, will water changes alone keep my Sr up?

My other concern is if I switch to say the BRS Ca product, I have no idea what concentration there's is vs the RS product.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, strontium has no utility in an ordinary reef tank. Long ago folks saw it was incorporated into coral skeletons and, IMO, mistakenly assumed that meant it was needed. But abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate incorporates the same amount.

There’s no evidence that it is needed by all but a few fairly obscure organisms.

That said, it’s certainly a fine plan to dose to maintain natural levels, assuming yours drops below that.

 

[DeputyDog95]

FWIW
Their liquid form of their B has a higher concentration amount of alk, than their dry to mix form of alk B.

Just tossing it out on the table...

I've never used their dry version. Tell me more and why that might be useful. Sorry, I'm not tracking

 

[DeputyDog95]

Switch to a different calcium...?

Is my math right? Will it actually take about 5x as much Ca using the BRS than I'm currently using w the Red Sea product?

I basically took the Red Sea reference numbers and plugged them into the BRS calculator.

Red Sea says, based on a 25g volume, it will take 1ml of their solution to raise the water 2ppm. However, the BRS calcium seems to indicate, based on the same numbers, that it will take a little over 5ml for the same 2ppm increase.

Seems wildly different which is why I feel like I'm doing it wrong Or is the Red Sea product extremely concentrated?

 

[blaxsun]

I use the Nyos powdered supplements. It worked out to $2 for the last 3L of alkalinity I mixed up.

 

[DeputyDog95]

I use the Nyos powdered supplements. It worked out to $2 for the last 3L of alkalinity I mixed up.

Cheap!

 

[blaxsun]

Cheap!

Yeah, the calcium and magnesium is even cheaper to mix up...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Or is the Red Sea product extremely concentrated?

When one is not trying to make a two part with designed 1:1 dosing, the calcium part can be made much more potent than usual. Red Sea takes that approach.

 

[DeputyDog95]

When one is not trying to make a two part with designed 1:1 dosing, the calcium part can be made much more potent than usual. Red Sea takes that approach.

I'm switching to the BRS hybrid balling system this week and using Kalk at night to supplement and keep the pH up.

Oddly enough, I don't recall seeing K or Sr listed in any of the products, so we'll see how it goes.

It's interesting, I found a calculator online and to match the red sea liquid ALK at 150ml a day, I'm going to have to dose 250ml of the BRS to maintain same levels. Interesting how the concentrations vary.

It will be nice to go back to a 1 to 1 product. Dumb, but I like the idea of keeping those equal so I don't have to think I'm thirds for the Ca.

I may leave their Tropic Marin trace out completely in the first batch just to see where it all lands.

The balling method seems interesting with regards to rising salinity levels and eliminating the sodium imbalance the way I understand it. As it is, I have to adjust my salinity down to typically 33ppt on my bi weekly water changes to maintain my target 35ppt.

Figured if I have to make a change, might as well go with something that's readily available, popular, seems to have a proven track record, and is inexpensive..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm switching to the BRS hybrid balling system this week and using Kalk at night to supplement and keep the pH up.

Oddly enough, I don't recall seeing K or Sr listed in any of the products, so we'll see how it goes.

It's interesting, I found a calculator online and to match the red sea liquid ALK at 150ml a day, I'm going to have to dose 250ml of the BRS to maintain same levels. Interesting how the concentrations vary.

It will be nice to go back to a 1 to 1 product. Dumb, but I like the idea of keeping those equal so I don't have to think I'm thirds for the Ca.

I may leave their Tropic Marin trace out completely in the first batch just to see where it all lands.

The balling method seems interesting with regards to rising salinity levels and eliminating the sodium imbalance the way I understand it. As it is, I have to adjust my salinity down to typically 33ppt on my bi weekly water changes to maintain my target 35ppt.

Figured if I have to make a change, might as well go with something that's readily available, popular, seems to have a proven track record, and is inexpensive..

Nothing in that system ( BRS hybrid balling system this week and using Kalk ) boosts potassium significantly, but you may or may not need any. I never needed any. Potassium is in Balling Part C, but that just offsets the issues relating to the salinity boost and correction, not offsetting any demand.

IMO, strontium is not a useful supplement in most reef aquaria, but kalkwasser will often have a little in it, but typically not enough to maintain NSW levels. Balling part C again has some, but only to offset salinity increases and corrections.

 

[DeputyDog95]

Nothing in that system ( BRS hybrid balling system this week and using Kalk ) boosts potassium significantly, but you may or may not need any. I never needed any. Potassium is in Balling Part C, but that just offsets the issues relating to the salinity boost and correction, not offsetting any demand.

IMO, strontium is not a useful supplement in most reef aquaria, but kalkwasser will often have a little in it, but typically not enough to maintain NSW levels. Balling part C again has some, but only to offset salinity increases and corrections.

I've seen people will wildly successful reef tanks doing just the minimum of weekly water changes and appropriate two part dosing. No special potions, trace elements, etc. Just good tank husbandry.

This BRS/Balling thing obviously is a little more than just the basics, but the premise seems sound and the BRS/Trop Marin products in these categories seem to be well received by the hobby.

Downside is having to mix all this from powder, but they make it pretty easy with simple measurements, mixing jugs, etc and I always have 17g of RODI water on hand.

Should be significantly less expensive than the Red Sea as well, even though I would be dosing about 50% more than the Red Sea. The Red Sea 5l jugs are now around $90. Very spendy.

One thing I'm struggling with a little bit is when I dose Kalk at night to push up the pH, and even though I have the DOS setup to auto dose less at night based on Trident testing, it still pushes the Alk up a quarter point higher than it should be every morning with the Kalk and the 2 part being dosed together.

I guess I should experiment with maybe going in and adjusting the DOS's suggested night dosing routine down by 20% maybe to balance it out?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One thing I'm struggling with a little bit is when I dose Kalk at night to push up the pH, and even though I have the DOS setup to auto dose less at night based on Trident testing, it still pushes the Alk up a quarter point higher than it should be every morning with the Kalk and the 2 part being dosed together.

That's the conundrum.

Stabilize pH by dosing more high pH additives at night, or stabilize alk by dosing during the day. There's no perfect answer, IMO.