tang scratching in copper qt.

Fishday

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Hello, thanks for reading.

It has been approx 50 days now since beginning of copper treatment (kept min .25 constant) in qt.

around two days ago, I noticed blue hippo hysterically scratching one side of her body.

occasional one-time scratch is ok, but it's pretty severe now.

can't find ich spot yet. also nothing found in FW dip.

dt is about 6 feet away from the qt, but really? even if it's not 10 feet, the qt's been copper soup for 50+ days...

so my question would be..

1. what would be the likely cause of this severe scratching

2. say free-swimming ich flew in from the dt... wouldn't the copper have taken care of those parachute ich troops?
 
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Saltyreef

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What kind of copper product are you using?

What are you using to test the copper level?

Why did you feel the need to extend beyond 30 days in copper?

6ft may still be too close to avoid cross contamination so its completely possible and you could be dealing with something else besides ich.
 

Gtinnel

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I just finished treating a fish in cupramine and the therapeutic level I think is .4-.5ppm. If you are using copper power its closer to 1.5-2ppm.
My guess is that you didn't have enough copper in the water to kill any parasite.

If you are using some copper treatment that works down to that low of a concentration then just ignore me, again I'm still fairly new to treating with copper.
 
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Fishday

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What kind of copper product are you using?

What are you using to test the copper level?

Why did you feel the need to extend beyond 30 days in copper?

6ft may still be too close to avoid cross contamination so its completely possible and you could be dealing with something else besides ich.
hi thanks for replying

I'm using cupramine by seachem

salifert copper test kit to test and I'm sure it's been over 0.25 cant say how much higher tho only that its been lower than 0.5

more than 30 days because well 76 days fallow means there are strains that need 76 days to hatch, and if that followed to qt, then dont I need to cover 76 days with copper? since eggs are impenetrable.
 
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Fishday

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I just finished treating a fish in cupramine and the therapeutic level I think is .4-.5ppm. If you are using copper power its closer to 1.5-2ppm.
My guess is that you didn't have enough copper in the water to kill any parasite.

If you are using some copper treatment that works down to that low of a concentration then just ignore me, again I'm still fairly new to treating with copper.
hey thanks for replying.

I'm using cupramine too, and its pretty hard to tell with that color test sheet.

def higher than 0.25 but lowet than 0.5

Ive been on the lower side because they are still pretty youngsters and heavy coppering resulted in a bit of HLLE on a tang.

weird enough tho, shes been clear of ich the last 14 days or so and now suddenly scrathing but no sign of ich white spot.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Hello, thanks for reading.

It has been approx 50 days now since beginning of copper treatment (kept min .25 constant) in qt.

around two days ago, I noticed blue hippo hysterically scratching one side of her body.

occasional one-time scratch is ok, but it's pretty severe now.

can't find ich spot yet. also nothing found in FW dip.

dt is about 6 feet away from the qt, but really? even if it's not 10 feet, the qt's been copper soup for 50+ days...

so my question would be..

1. what would be the likely cause of this severe scratching

2. say free-swimming ich flew in from the dt... wouldn't the copper have taken care of those parachute ich troops?
.25 is too low, for Cupramine, should be at .5 the trouble with copper is you can’t let things drop below therapeutic levels, it is a very fine line between too low to work and the minimum needed for proper treatment. If you are unsure of your test kit, mix up five gallons of seawater, dose it exactly, then test it - that will show you what a .5 test should look like.
That all said, you should also consider dosing Prazipro for flukes at some point.
Jay
 

Gtinnel

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hey thanks for replying.

I'm using cupramine too, and its pretty hard to tell with that color test sheet.

def higher than 0.25 but lowet than 0.5

Ive been on the lower side because they are still pretty youngsters and heavy coppering resulted in a bit of HLLE on a tang.

weird enough tho, shes been clear of ich the last 14 days or so and now suddenly scrathing but no sign of ich white spot.
I also used the seachem test kit and absolutely hate it. I had to have my daughter read it because I wasn't able to accurately enough. Next time I put a fish through qt I'm going to get the Hanna copper checker. Unfortunately your copper level was likely not consistently high enough to kill the theronts.

So I've just been reading about the life cycle and apparently they can stay as Tomonts for up to 35 days with one report saying up to 72 days, so you have a good question why do we only treat with copper for about 30 days? I do know that increasing tank temperature is supposed to speed the whole process up
 

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hi thanks for replying

I'm using cupramine by seachem

salifert copper test kit to test and I'm sure it's been over 0.25 cant say how much higher tho only that its been lower than 0.5

more than 30 days because well 76 days fallow means there are strains that need 76 days to hatch, and if that followed to qt, then dont I need to cover 76 days with copper? since eggs are impenetrable.
I’d say he’s been in copper too long. The fallow period is because dinoflagellates, which is what you are treating for, can utilize photosynthesis to survive and reproduce on a smaller scale. Lifespan is only a few days at most. The fallow period is also just that, treatment through starvation with no copper/medicine. Medication kills them off quicker.
 

Gtinnel

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I’d say he’s been in copper too long. The fallow period is because dinoflagellates, which is what you are treating for, can utilize photosynthesis to survive and reproduce on a smaller scale. Lifespan is only a few days at most. The fallow period is also just that, treatment through starvation with no copper/medicine. Medication kills them off quicker.
One of us have a very incorrect understanding of the marine ich life cycle, but I guess it could be me. LOL
What does dinoflagellates have to do with the Cryptocaryon irritans life cycle?
 

LeftyReefer

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50 days is fine in Copper. I've had fish go longer than that.

I would strongly suggest that you switch to a chelated copper product like copper power or coppersafe. It seams a lot gentler on fish than cupramine. I've used both and now prefer copper power by a large margin.

Also, if you plan to QT fish again or as an ongoing plan... invest the $50 and get the Hanna copper checker. $50 is steep, but no other copper test on the market compares. You will be much happier and sure of your results. The copper power is also easier to use than the cupramine due to having a wider dosing window. All my fish tolerate copper power where I've had multiple fish react badly to cupramine.
 
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Brent Bohannon

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One of us have a very incorrect understanding of the marine ich life cycle, but I guess it could be me. LOL
What does dinoflagellates have to do with the Cryptocaryon irritans life cycle?
Here is a link to what you are talking about. I was referring to velvet, which is much worse. That’s the one that needs a long fallow period. The strain also matters along with therapeutic levels yada yada yada. Correct therapeutic levels are more important than time because you just create more resistant critters if you don’t kill them. Survival of the fittest. Just like bacteria and antibiotics.
 

Jay Hemdal

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I’d say he’s been in copper too long. The fallow period is because dinoflagellates, which is what you are treating for, can utilize photosynthesis to survive and reproduce on a smaller scale. Lifespan is only a few days at most. The fallow period is also just that, treatment through starvation with no copper/medicine. Medication kills them off quicker.
Actually, the dinoflagellate parasite, Amyloodinium (that causes velvet) is NOT photosynthetic. The freshwater velvet is though.
Velvet seems to have a shorter fallow period than ich does.
Jay
 

Spieg

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So I've just been reading about the life cycle and apparently they can stay as Tomonts for up to 35 days with one report saying up to 72 days, so you have a good question why do we only treat with copper for about 30 days? I do know that increasing tank temperature is supposed to speed the whole process up
30 days in copper (quarantine tank) and 74 days without copper (display tank).
 

Gtinnel

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Here is a link to what you are talking about. I was referring to velvet, which is much worse. That’s the one that needs a long fallow period. The strain also matters along with therapeutic levels yada yada yada. Correct therapeutic levels are more important than time because you just create more resistant critters if you don’t kill them. Survival of the fittest. Just like bacteria and antibiotics.
I knew velvet was caused by Amyloodinium, but I never knew it's a dinoflagellate parasite. I didn't even know there was such a thing as parasitic dinoflagellate. You said dinoflagellate and I instantly though of dinos that we closely relate to algea.
There is always more to learn in this hobby.
 

Gtinnel

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30 days in copper (quarantine tank) and 74 days without copper (display tank).
Right (I thought 76 for fallow) but why? I understand why that time for fallow, but I don't understand for copper. If the fish is left in qt with copper for 30 days and then the copper is removed, and the fish is left in qt, isn't there a chance the fish can be re infected if the parasite can live as a resistant tomont for that long? I just finished copper on my fish for 30 days because thats what I read online but until the OP mentioned it I never even considered the reason why we use 30 days. Also, I've read that you can remove them from copper after 2 weeks as long as they are moved to a ich free tank, and I understand that because it gives time for ich to drop off and they couldn't have been re infected since the ich would have to be a theront to re infected (which can't happen with proper levels of copper).

I'm probably missing something but I don't understand how copper for 30 days can absolutely kill the parasite if the fish is left in the tank after the copper is removed if the parasite can supposedly be resistant to copper for more than 30 days.
 
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Brent Bohannon

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I knew velvet was caused by Amyloodinium, but I never knew it's a dinoflagellate parasite. I didn't even know there was such a thing as parasitic dinoflagellate. You said dinoflagellate and I instantly though of dinos that we closely relate to algea.
There is always more to learn in this hobby.
I went back and looked some more about the photosynthetic ability. This is the article I was referring to. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/. I will say that everything in this article tracked with my experience. When the lights went on, the fish started dropping. When they could hide they did, and survived better. I found this article that states it is not photosynthetic. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.php. Not sure which is right and I wouldn’t say either is more valid than the other. I take the stance that they are photosynthetic because of what I have experienced. Either way, it’s a good reason to quarantine and save money on lights.
 

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