The Copper Window

Humblefish

Dr. Fish
View Badges
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
22,424
Reaction score
34,848
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
For those who prophylactically treat with copper for ich & velvet in QT, it's an age old question: Do I treat with copper immediately or wait until the fish begins eating? Both options have solid arguments in their favor. Copper can suppress appetite, so it's a good idea to let a finicky eater begin feeding before starting treatment. However, if the fish came to you with parasites (especially velvet) then delaying treatment could mean the difference between life & death. :(

In an effort to provide some clarity to this quagmire, I re-examined the "front end" of both ich & velvet's known lifecycle. This front end (after trophonts drop off the fish) is a lot more predictable than the back end (waiting for free swimmers to be released) of the lifecycle. For the sake of argument, we will assume worst case scenario for both ich & velvet. Meaning, we assume trophonts start falling off an infected specimen immediately after being placed in QT.

ICH: Once a trophont leaves the fish, it becomes a protomont. This phase crawls for anywhere from 2 to 18 hours before sticking to a surface & encysting. The cyst fully hardens in about 8-12 hours, and is now considered a tomont. This is the "egg stage" which releases theronts (free swimmers which infect fish). The time required for theront development varies/is unpredictable. However, the soonest theronts have ever emerged from a group of tomonts was 3 days or 72 hours. You'll notice this lines up perfectly with when tank transfer method is supposed to be done. ;)

VELVET: Velvet has a lifecycle similar to ich, except velvet free swimmers are called dinospores instead of theronts. And it only takes 2 days or 48 hours before dinospores can begin emerging from velvet tomonts.

So, why is the free swimming stage so important? Because it's the only stage proven to be vulnerable to copper, Chloroquine and hyposalinity treatments. Copper provides no immediate relief for the parasites on your fish, nor is it capable of penetrating through the tomont's cyst. So, it's a waiting game ... How long until the parasite reaches the free swimming stage that the copper can zap?

We now have our answers: 48 hours for velvet & 72 hours for ich.

This means you would need to get your copper level up to therapeutic* within these time frames if you didn't want any chance of your fish being reinfected. Due to the severity of velvet, I would say raising copper to therapeutic within 48 hours is necessary if you knew your specimen was infected with that disease. However, being ich is a "milder parasite" you must weigh the risk of raising copper to therapeutic within 72 hours vs. if you think your fish can handle that. Typically, I recommend taking 5-7 days to raise copper on a fish if no signs of disease are present.

So why am I treating with copper for 30 days then? Because the above information only discusses when free swimmers can first start to emerge from tomonts. With velvet, trophonts can remain on the fish for up to 4 days, and it can take up to another 20 days for all the dinospores (free swimmers) to be released from their tomonts after that. :eek: (Dinospores can use photosynthesis for energy if copper is not present to kill them. They can remain infective for up to 15 days this way, and these combined numbers are why I recommend 6 weeks fallow in a DT for velvet.) For ich, 7 days is the maximum trophonts can stay attached to a fish and 2-3 weeks is the "normal maximum" for theront release. However, in one study it did take 35 days and in another 72 days for
all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts. :eek: The presence of copper is the only thing "shielding" your fish from reinfection. Knowing these rare strains do exist, observing post treatment to ensure symptoms do not return is very important.


* Therapeutic ionic copper (ex. Cupramine) is 0.35-0.5 mg/L or ppm. Use a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit to measure.

Therapeutic chelated copper (ex. Coppersafe) is 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. Use an API copper test kit to measure.
 

Empress

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 16, 2016
Messages
1,031
Reaction score
801
Location
Central Florida, USA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Wow! Now this write-up makes a lot more sense!

Yep, I'm printing this topic out right now for another hard copy to add to my "Go Away Disease" bible.

You ARE the man, Humblefish!
 

jwshiver

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 1, 2016
Messages
448
Reaction score
626
Location
Jacksonville, FL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
First question.
Is one form of copper better over another? Chelated vs non chelated.

Second.
My tank went fallow January 29, 2017. I added a new fish to my tank and a week later I watched over the course of four days my entire fish stock get wiped out (and my wife cry when the pair of clowns died) except for the new fish and a melenurus wrasse. Now I quarantine and treat with Cupramine. Lesson learned. After 80 days I was ready to introduce my QT fish to my DT. I decided to watch the fish from across the room because their behavior when I'm standing at the tank is to act like a bunch of starving piranha. After a few minutes I noticed them rubbing against the PVC on the bottom of the tank and facing into the power head flow :mad::mad::mad:. This after 30 days of Cupramine at the beginning of the fallow period in the DT. Lesson number two learned, observe fish when they are not aware of your presence to see how they behave when not begging for food. Looking back I would lay the blame on me (operator error) for not being diligent in testing my copper levels daily as I am now. As a side note @Humblefish recommended CHEMets copper test kit. Thank you for that!! I highly recommend it. It is much easier to read than the Seachem copper test kit. I have needed on occasion to add copper to keep the concentration up to therapeutic levels. This leads to my next question. If copper is a heavy metal shouldn't the copper concentration in the water remain the same barring evaporation?
 

4FordFamily

Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
20,434
Reaction score
47,542
Location
Carmel, Indiana
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I prefer coppersafe for some fish and cupramine for others. I've had good success with both, personally with slight preference for coppersafe.
 

melypr1985

totally addicted
View Badges
Joined
May 4, 2014
Messages
15,113
Reaction score
23,543
Location
Dallas area
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
If copper is a heavy metal shouldn't the copper concentration in the water remain the same barring evaporation?

Yes it should, but there are things that will absorb copper as well such as sand, live rock, plastics, carbon ect. So that could be effecting your concentration. Water changes can do this as well if the levels are not right before the water goes into the QT.
Is one form of copper better over another? Chelated vs non chelated.

I also like chelated copper better. I use it at the store exclusively (coppersafe) and have much better results wtih all the fish I keep in that system. Cupramine works just fine and is a good product, but I find chelated copper to be a bit more mild on the fish.
 

Just grow it: Have you ever added CO2 to your reef tank?

  • I currently use a CO2 with my reef tank.

    Votes: 8 7.0%
  • I don’t currently use CO2 with my reef tank, but I have in the past.

    Votes: 4 3.5%
  • I have never used CO2 with my reef tank, but I plan to in the future.

    Votes: 5 4.4%
  • I have never used CO2 with my reef tank and have no plans to in the future.

    Votes: 92 80.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 5 4.4%
Back
Top