The word on Phosphates

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To add on, this can get tricky since some corals will not care about elevated residual po4 and some will care a lot. Generalizing about "corals," or "SPS" or whatever is not helpful. I mostly have acropora in my tank and there are some that will suffer, stop growing and die back at .1, or so, where others can go to 1.0 and beyond.

I measure about 1-3 (sometimes up to 5 on occasion) ppb on Hannah Ultra low Phosphorous checker. When I had a Hach Total P kit which tests all kinds of phosphates and phosphorous sources, not just orthophosphate, the numbers were 5-10x higher than this. These other forms get phosphorous to your corals too.

Just testing po4 does not tell you the whole story and can be fools gold, IMO. All that it tells you for sure is that you have a surplus.

I, for one, see MUCH faster coralline growth with lower no3 and po4 levels... much faster. Chaeto grows faster for me too, but it will still grow in higher level tanks. I do not experience true acropora burnt tips because 1-3ppb of po4 and .1 no3 are not Ultra Low... just ocean type of level - if you get below these, usually needing chemicals and media, then the skeletons can calcify so fast that they can outgrow organic tissue.

Feed your fish a lot, export a lot. Keep residual levels fairly low if you want to keep any coral at any time, or choose corals that thrive in the levels that you want to keep - find your zen place for cost/effort of export. The rest will be OK.
I appreciate all of this. I’ve learned more from this one post than all the online reading and research that I’ve done.

As to the DOM/DOC… I always figured that algae was just a space competitor. The link to pathogens and localized oxygen depletion is fascinating. I’m not sure what role this plays in an aquarium, but it’s given me a whole new perspective on what wild corals are facing. I was in the BVI a few years ago and did not observe a single living reef cruising through the islands.
 
The reasons for corals to grow or not grow are very complex and include environmental conditions different from what they were used to and microbial issues in tank microbiomes as well as individual coral microbiomes. From what I've seen in others and my own systems it can take weeks to months and even years for a coral to acclimate and start growing.

Unfortunately the recommendation to keep PO4 low (in ppb) was espoused by "gurus" that didn't look at the research or what researchers were observing and it became the dogma still spouted by some. FWIW .03 mg/l is the threshold level to prevent phosphorus limitation in corals, identified by researchers at Southampton University in England using corals maintained in an aquarium for about a decade. .3 mg/l is what corals are subjected to with upwelling in the ocean. .5 mg/l might be acceptable for some as acros have been shown to increase growth up to this level. .9mg/l is the level the Steinhart Aqaurium's ex situ sexually reproduced acro colonies are being grwon out with. Rich Ross's (who's part of the team at Steinhart) has his acro dominate mixed reef sitting at 1.8 mg/l, his tank can be seen at the beginning of his MACNA presentation on phosphate. You can see his current levels as well as some cool videos of corals spawning in his thread.

ALso, what hasn't been pointed out until teh last few years is we are dealing with a lot more than just phosphate or Dissolved Inoragainc Pohsphorus or DIP. Reef systems have Particulate Organic Phosphorus or POP and Dissolved Organic Phosphorus or DOP, niether we can test for. As is evident in this figure from this paper on phosphorus cycling in corals it's possible depending on the foodwebs in a system corals may in fact be the source of phosphates as they process POP and DOP

DIP DOP POP.jpg

If you're interested into looking into the microbial stuff here's some links:

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Microbial view of Coral Decline


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome

Thank you SO MUCH for the time you took to write this out and share. I have been running myself ragged about Phosphate levels. I'm readjusting my approach thanks to your shared research!
 
Hey everyone, I know I don't post here often, but I enjoy lurking.

How many folks have experience maintaining customer tanks for 30+ years, with some of the original live animals still thriving?

I’m not talking about just being in the reef hobby for three decades, stopping and starting along the way. I mean actually running a professional business, building and maintaining tanks for corporate clients where the same tank has been alive and kicking for all those years.

There are plenty of ways to approach reefkeeping, but there’s no doubt that Tim Hanson has an incredible talent for designing and maintaining reef tanks long-term. I know everyone has their own style, but I tend to trust people with a proven track record like his.

I’ve been down the road of reading all the white papers, investing in the latest high-end equipment, dosing everything under the sun, and chasing every new trend. But honestly, it wasn’t until Tim stepped in that my tank really started thriving. His no-nonsense, simple approach has not only saved me a ton of frustration—but also thousands of dollars.

In our Austin community, Tim is widely regarded as one of the top experts in the industry.
 
Wow, that is both harsh and incorrect,IMO. It makes us sound ignorant and uninformed.

When I wrote an article on calcification in 2002, I referenced papers at the time that showed elevated phosphate inhibited calcification. I do not recall seeing any others at that time which refuted the notion, and most of us assumed that natural levels of phosphate was a good goal.

These are from that 2002 article:

  1. Effects of elevated nitrogen and phosphorus on coral reef growth.Kinsey, Donald W.; Davies, Peter J. Limnol. Oceanogr. (1979), 24(5), 935-40.
  2. ENCORE: the effect of nutrient enrichment on coral reefs. Synthesis of results and conclusions Dennison, W.; Erdmann, M.; Harrison, P.; Hoegh-Guldberg, O.; Hutchings, P.; Jones, G. B.; Larkum, A. W. D.; O’Neil, J.; Steven, A.; Tentori, E.; Ward, S.; Williamson, J.; Yellowlees, D. Marine Pollution Bulletin (2001), 42(2), 91-120.
https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium...-and-biochemical-mechanisms-of-calcification/

What strikes me as harsh are all the animals that were killed because reef hobbyests were given a misrepresentation of phosphorus in reef ecosystems.

Back in the early 90's I bought into the notion PO4 needed to be low. But my experiences working at a LFS, for an aquarium maintenance company then starting my own business and what I read moderated what I believed. With PO4 among the authors I read varying from no recommendation to 0.0 mg/l to .5 mg/l and seeing nice systems with "unacceptable" PO4 and algae ridden systems with "ideal" PO4 I stopped worrying about it. Using test kits that read from 0.0 to .08 or 1.0 as long as PO4 was in the middlin to lower part of the range I didn't try lower it.*

Getting active on the forums in 2009 I was puzzled by the low recommendations and started looking to see what reef scientists where saying. Veron's observations, published in 1993, noting ocean circulation and upwelling, with as much as .3 mg/l PO4, was an important supply of nutrients for reefs.
"Imported nutrients are usually transported to reefs from rivers; but if there are no rivers, as with reefs remote from land masses, nutrients can only come from surface ocean circulation. Often this supply is poor, and thus the vast ocean expanses have been refered to as "nutrient deserts". The Indo-Pacific has many huge atolls in these supposed deserts which testify to the resilience of reefs, but the corals themselves may lack the lush appearance of those of more fertile waters. Many reefs have another major supply of inorganic nutrients as, under certain conditions, surface currents moving against a reef face may cause deep ocean water to be drawn to the surface. This "upwelled" water is often rich in phosphorus and other essential chemicals." J. E. N. Veron "Corals of Austrailia and the Indo-Pacific" pg 30

Adding Veron's observations to Conkright's paper on ocean surface PO4 levels and Kleypas look at values on reef systems and a very different picture appears. Instead of corals living in their corner of the ocean in low nutrient waters you have a gradient from .3 mg/l PO4 in deeper waters to ~.02 - ~.04 mg/l PO4 in surface waters away from reefs to very low around reefs. Along with other papers showing a high demand for phosphorus in it's various forms it seemed obvious the low PO4 numbers around corals is because they're sucking it up and maybe the assumption to keep it low in our reefs wasn't the best idea.

Seeing your reference to ENCORE I looked it up on google scholar. Szmant's paper in 2002 is one that popped up. In the abstract referencing nutrient over-enrichment as a cause of coral decline she said "Support for such claims is equivical at best." She goes on to discuss various problems with ENCORE. (One that seems egregious to me was using data from colonies of species transplanted to locations those species did not occur naturally.) I had never heard of bisphosphonate in Yamashiro's paper referenced in your article looked into it and found Marshall & Clode (2002) looked at bisphosphonate's effect on calcification also and found it's effect "potentially illusory". So it looks like you used some questionable papers.

You're right Dr. Holmes-Farley, a lot of people assumed corals needed low PO4 numbers. But it doesn't look to me like many of the reef aquarist gurus did much research to verify their assumptions or just looked until they found what confirmed their assumptions. Look at your refferences in your post, you're still using ENCORE 22 years after Szmant's paper pointed out serious flaws in it. You say you were not aware of other research. How hard did you look for other research? I have to wonder because Szmant certainly found contradictory research. Were you even aware of Szmant's paper before now?




*For the record, for those not familiar with my posting current research, what I've been posting for years is .03 to .3 mg/l for PO4. The research by Rosset, deAngelo and Weidenman at the University of Southampton done with corals maintained in a closed reef system found phosphate deficiency in corals impacts their photobiology. They've identified a minimum level of .03 mg/l. Coupled with Veron's observations of upwelling potentially providing .3 mg/l gives what seems a reasonable range of .03 to .3 mg/l for PO4 for reef ecosystems. See my post here for some other PO4 numbers corals have been successfully spawned and raised in.
 
I consider DOC a two way street. Corals and seaweeds use it and their exudates are also DOC. I choose to use both ornamental & cryptic sponges for their unique biofiltration abilities.

Tim,
Not sure why you got on your high horse. After I saw your post, I read an article posted by Randy on this website February 3, 2025.

I think you should read it before you continue to
“rail on”.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randy’s-thoughts-on-nutrient-target-ranges.1087/
 
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What strikes me as harsh are all the animals that were killed because reef hobbyests were given a misrepresentation of phosphorus in reef ecosystems.

Back in the early 90's I bought into the notion PO4 needed to be low. But my experiences working at a LFS, for an aquarium maintenance company then starting my own business and what I read moderated what I believed. With PO4 among the authors I read varying from no recommendation to 0.0 mg/l to .5 mg/l and seeing nice systems with "unacceptable" PO4 and algae ridden systems with "ideal" PO4 I stopped worrying about it. Using test kits that read from 0.0 to .08 or 1.0 as long as PO4 was in the middlin to lower part of the range I didn't try lower it.*

Getting active on the forums in 2009 I was puzzled by the low recommendations and started looking to see what reef scientists where saying. Veron's observations, published in 1993, noting ocean circulation and upwelling, with as much as .3 mg/l PO4, was an important supply of nutrients for reefs.
"Imported nutrients are usually transported to reefs from rivers; but if there are no rivers, as with reefs remote from land masses, nutrients can only come from surface ocean circulation. Often this supply is poor, and thus the vast ocean expanses have been refered to as "nutrient deserts". The Indo-Pacific has many huge atolls in these supposed deserts which testify to the resilience of reefs, but the corals themselves may lack the lush appearance of those of more fertile waters. Many reefs have another major supply of inorganic nutrients as, under certain conditions, surface currents moving against a reef face may cause deep ocean water to be drawn to the surface. This "upwelled" water is often rich in phosphorus and other essential chemicals." J. E. N. Veron "Corals of Austrailia and the Indo-Pacific" pg 30

Adding Veron's observations to Conkright's paper on ocean surface PO4 levels and Kleypas look at values on reef systems and a very different picture appears. Instead of corals living in their corner of the ocean in low nutrient waters you have a gradient from .3 mg/l PO4 in deeper waters to ~.02 - ~.04 mg/l PO4 in surface waters away from reefs to very low around reefs. Along with other papers showing a high demand for phosphorus in it's various forms it seemed obvious the low PO4 numbers around corals is because they're sucking it up and maybe the assumption to keep it low in our reefs wasn't the best idea.

Seeing your reference to ENCORE I looked it up on google scholar. Szmant's paper in 2002 is one that popped up. In the abstract referencing nutrient over-enrichment as a cause of coral decline she said "Support for such claims is equivical at best." She goes on to discuss various problems with ENCORE. (One that seems egregious to me was using data from colonies of species transplanted to locations those species did not occur naturally.) I had never heard of bisphosphonate in Yamashiro's paper referenced in your article looked into it and found Marshall & Clode (2002) looked at bisphosphonate's effect on calcification also and found it's effect "potentially illusory". So it looks like you used some questionable papers.

You're right Dr. Holmes-Farley, a lot of people assumed corals needed low PO4 numbers. But it doesn't look to me like many of the reef aquarist gurus did much research to verify their assumptions or just looked until they found what confirmed their assumptions. Look at your refferences in your post, you're still using ENCORE 22 years after Szmant's paper pointed out serious flaws in it. You say you were not aware of other research. How hard did you look for other research? I have to wonder because Szmant certainly found contradictory research. Were you even aware of Szmant's paper before now?




*For the record, for those not familiar with my posting current research, what I've been posting for years is .03 to .3 mg/l for PO4. The research by Rosset, deAngelo and Weidenman at the University of Southampton done with corals maintained in a closed reef system found phosphate deficiency in corals impacts their photobiology. They've identified a minimum level of .03 mg/l. Coupled with Veron's observations of upwelling potentially providing .3 mg/l gives what seems a reasonable range of .03 to .3 mg/l for PO4 for reef ecosystems. See my post here for some other PO4 numbers corals have been successfully spawned and raised in.

You and I disagree on a number of issues, and that's fine. Disagreement is part of science.

It is true that many reefers, myself included, previously used ocean levels of various elements (such as phosphate) as suitable targets for a long time before realizing that important differences relative to reef tanks made recommending ocean values suboptimal in many cases. The big difference, IMO, is the availability of particulate foods.

Target levels of many different things have been an evolving reef aquarium science ever since the beginning. They are also the object of varying opinions on what is best, and everyone could possibly be right given their local circumstances.

I do recommend a higher phosphate level than I did in the past, due to evolution in our/my understanding of many of the processes taking place, and examples with various parameter levels to support the claims.

I would strongly challenge your assumption, however, that my personal recommendation for a typical reef tank is somehow equivalent to my saying that low levels (such as 0.02 ppm) is not OK. It is not saying that. Same with levels above my range.

Many of the corals growing in the ocean are thriving in a phosphate range below the bottom end of either of our suggested ranges. That is not a problem for me, since I am not claiming that they cannot thrive in those ranges.
 
So I get conflicting information on phosphates. I get everything from that you have to have minimal numbers and that phosphates stunt coral growth or that it doesn't matter as long as it's stable and then recently I watched a video about a successful coral farmer that runs like 0.8 and Acro growing like crazy. Well, my 90 gallon classroom tank is about 5 months old with a 40 gallon sump with skimmer, chaeto refugium (chaeto growing like a weed) and separate deep mud mangrove display fuge. My Cephastrea and mushrooms are growing like crazy but very little growth of my zoas, GSP, Xenia and Toadstool. They are very beautiful and look great... just no growth. I realize the tank is young but I'm just wondering if I should try to get my phosphates down. Lately I've been getting less than 10 nitrates and 0.25ppm phosphates (both Salifert and API agree on this). The tank looks great (starting to get some coralline on back wall) and no serious algae problems other than some patches of very tough turf algae (see my other post). I have two clownfish and a blenny. So.... should I target getting those phosphates down and try to raise nitrates? Or... just be stable and wait?
IMG_0027.jpg
I'll just say that I battled dinos due to bottomed out nutrients. reversed that issue.

Nitrates around 18, phos .26. Tank has never looked happier. I'm not a big fan of ultra low phosphates.
 

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