Thoughts on Intermittent bacteria hosting reactor?

FranklinDattein · Jan 3, 2016

Hi reefers,
I have been reading about Zeovit and it seems they have a number of great products, mixed with some questionable and over priced ones.
Therefore, I have been thinking on ways to benefit of the good ones.

The element I would like to discuss is the Zeolite reactor.

Some shake it periodically, to let the mulm be consumed by the skimmer and corals, some others run it ON/OFF every 3 hours.

My assumptions:

- A ULNS with carbon dosing.

- OFF periods, in the reactor, would promote a better environment for anaerobic bacteria and ON periods promote aerobic bacteria.

- Bacteria variety is beneficial, as it can potentially cover a wide diet of coral food. (assuming some corals might feed on one strain and not on some other).

- In theory, Zeolites as a bacteria media, are an overpriced and innefctive solution (cloggs quickly), which could be replaced by anything porous like LR or Marine Pure.

Questions:
1. Do you see anything wrong with the assumptions above?
2. Would it make sense to run a ON/OFF reactor, with porous media that doesn't get clogged so easily, like Marine Pure, in order to promote more bacteria strains?
3. Is there any research on coral feeding on bacteria mulm and the benefits of different strains?
4. Assuming regular carbon dosing, without a reactor, already does the job of keeping nutrients low, would this this idea be overkill?

Cory · Jan 4, 2016

Im not sure if it would be any more beneficial than just dosing carbon. Live rock promotes a lot of bacteria already. Sponges are more adapted to eating bacteria than coral in my research, in fact im thinking of using them to replace the skimmer.

Imo id look to larger food particles like plankton. However I remember coral apparently consuming their slime which acts like a bacteria trap. Not sure if thats true though. Sorry im not much help.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jan 4, 2016

I agree that the zeolite does nothing but provide a surface for bacteria to grow on, and other media can also be used. You also may choose to not use any sort of reactor (which is what most people do who organic carbon dose).

That gives you less control of shaking out the bacteria and potentially using them as coral food or making them skimmable. How important that is is not clear.

I would not run an on/off reactor because it might readily become anaerobic when off, producing toxic hydrogen sulfide inside it. There are plenty of low O2 enviroments in reef tanks so that organic carbon dosing usually does an effective job of reducing nitrate.

However, one does not need a low O2 environment for nutrient reduction with organic carbon dosing, and in some ways it might be better if there were none since then phosphate would be reduced more in proportion tot he amount of nitrate reduction. With low O2 environments around for some of the organic to be consumed in, the method overbalances to excessive nitrate with respect to phosphate, and such organic carbon dosing users often need other means of reducing phosphate (such as GFO).

I've not seen any data on how different bacteria are suitable or not to feeding corals, but many of our tank creatures feed heavily on bacteria. Sponges seem prime in this area, and they have thrived in my tank system much more since I started dosing vinegar a few years ago.

FranklinDattein · Jan 8, 2016

I would not run an on/off reactor because it might readily become anaerobic when off, producing toxic hydrogen sulfide inside it.

I totally forgot about sulfide. Thanks for pointing out.

There are plenty of low O2 enviroments in reef tanks so that organic carbon dosing usually does an effective job of reducing nitrate.

I guess low O2 areas become less available in shallow sand bed or bare bottom tanks, specially if using compact or fewer live rocks.

However, one does not need a low O2 environment for nutrient reduction with organic carbon dosing, and in some ways it might be better if there were none since then phosphate would be reduced more in proportion tot he amount of nitrate reduction. With low O2 environments around for some of the organic to be consumed in, the method overbalances to excessive nitrate with respect to phosphate, and such organic carbon dosing users often need other means of reducing phosphate (such as GFO).

Indeed, my current tank is a proof of it. I don't have much low O2 areas, if any, and denitrification works like a charm with Vinegar dosing.
In my tank, GFO was added at the same time as Vinegar, 2-3 years ago, so I never really experienced this lack of proportion. GFO was removed a few days ago, with the aim to understand where my tanks sits in the balance.

I've not seen any data on how different bacteria are suitable or not to feeding corals, but many of our tank creatures feed heavily on bacteria. Sponges seem prime in this area, and they have thrived in my tank system much more since I started dosing vinegar a few years ago.

According to Borneman their bacteria diet is something to be considered.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/eb/index.htm

Instead of a intermittent reactor, I will play with a low flow one, filled with marine pure balls, with the aim to provide a low O2 area and hopefully allow for other bacteria strains to develop.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jan 8, 2016

OK, let us know how it works out.

FranklinDattein · Jan 19, 2016

I wouldn't be able to tell if there is any bacterial strain leveraging the low O2 reactor, without a proper analysis. Do you suggest a DIY method of analysing it?
What I can tell from a naked eye, is that there is no bacterial biofilm inside of the reactor while there is plenty on all other surfaces.

reefwiser · Jan 19, 2016

http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5770
I would suggest looking at the advanced topic archive on the Zeovit forum. Tons of information there.
The above Mulm thread has tons of information in it.

Sabellafella · Jan 19, 2016

Theres this system manufactured in florida (dont kno why they dont advertise) that takes in 30 gallons of water every 4 hours, carbon doses, then releases back into the tank n03p04 free. Its acually really neat tho im not sure of the company that makes it or has it patent. If you want to go this route id look into it

reefwiser · Jan 19, 2016

sabellafella what was the company name always want to learn about new idea's Sounds like a aquaculture piece of equipment.

FranklinDattein · Jan 19, 2016

Sabellafella said:
Theres this system manufactured in florida (dont kno why they dont advertise) that takes in 30 gallons of water every 4 hours, carbon doses, then releases back into the tank n03p04 free. Its acually really neat tho im not sure of the company that makes it or has it patent. If you want to go this route id look into it

Sometime ago I read about a DIY system that does exactly that. As far as I remember, the reactor has an internal recirculating pump and main reason for such a system, is to avoid bacterial biofilm on the DT glass. Therefore, no low O2 zone and slightly different from my little experiment.
This particular article was a series of articles on "Advanced Aquarium automation", in one of the Reefkeeping magazines available on apple store. Unfortunately, I don't remember the magazine or author name.

FranklinDattein · Jan 19, 2016

Found the de-nitrator article:
http://reefhobbyistmagazine.com/magazine-tiled-q3-2014-14.html

Sabellafella · Jan 19, 2016

fsamir said:
Found the de-nitrator article:
http://reefhobbyistmagazine.com/magazine-tiled-q3-2014-14.html

Yup thats it, i kno a few people that use this and a few are on r2r alone. The 2 people on here i kno that use this were using zeo previously and were having problems (i guess getting lazy with the reactor pumping) and are acually having awesome results, all it takes is a slight change in dosing and you can keep your levels were you want them . i was thinking about this but all of my tanks are separately plumbed and there would be no means too. This system is better kept to 400gallons and up Imo(edit theirs a company that makes these in florida but never advertised it before. Most of the reefers i kno did it themselfs. Not alot of people know about this hopefully a company can shed some light soon)

Sabellafella · Jan 19, 2016

reefwiser said:
sabellafella what was the company name always want to learn about new idea's Sounds like a aquaculture piece of equipment.

I kno me too going to try to findout now

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jan 20, 2016

fsamir said:
I wouldn't be able to tell if there is any bacterial strain leveraging the low O2 reactor, without a proper analysis. Do you suggest a DIY method of analysing it?
What I can tell from a naked eye, is that there is no bacterial biofilm inside of the reactor while there is plenty on all other surfaces.

There's no DIY way to analyze different types of bacteria.

What is the media you are using in the reactor to provide surface area for bacterial growth?

Where else are you seeing bacteria?

Diesel · Jan 20, 2016

Interesting!

I used to do the full blown ZEO stuff for years and my tank was amazing but being in this hobby and not having a challenge isn't my style.
That's what this hobby is all about right, taking the next steps that other ppl haven't done yet.
Now I was wondering.......... I had many reactors for the ZEOlite stone and the last one (the large AVAST vibe )worked the best for me or I had good experiences with it and good results.

Not doing the ZEOvit method anymore as it was time for a different challenge but still using the vibe but using this media in it (http://premiumaquatics.com/products/np-biopellets-xl-1000ml.html)
Using it now for the last 18 months and I must say it works for me.
I have it set on three vibes of 45sec per 24hrs.
My Po4 and No3 are low if not for testing it will drop down to 0 on my Hanna checker and my Readsea No3 Pro kit as results that I'm dosing No3 to keep my balance at 3ppm.
Reading for what the media does gave me the impulse to try it and I'm happy with the results.
After a year of use I had to refill it with just a cup so it ain't that aggressive which I like.
Only other device I'm using is a Lifereef skimmer and twice a week a WC of 8G each on a total volume of 140 gallons.

FranklinDattein · Jan 20, 2016

Randy,
Media in the Low O2 reactor are marine pure spheres.

The only places I've seen biofilm are glass and plastic surfaces, like pumps.

Never seen on marine pure or rocks. However, when I introduced marine pure years ago(without the low O2 reactor), there was visible reduction in the speed in which biolfim develops on glass. I attributed that to the extra surface in marine pure.

I am coming to the conclusion my experiment is too poor and will not lead to any insights to whether low O2 area promotes bacterial diversity.