Too much surface agitation??

[legacy2mj]

I understand the importance of surface agitation. But in my case I’m wondering if you can have too much. I have a dual return jet nozzle and 1 is currently pointed upward slightly breaking the water surface. There are air bubbles that are a product of the agitation. I have never struggled with low PH so I don’t need anything in attempt to raise that. Im sure the excess isn’t necessary, but does it provide a benefit? Or is this a case of “more isn’t always better” ?

 

[EasternShoreman]

Surface agitation = gas exchange, which biologically speaking is always good. Now, if its causing to many micro bubbles and ruining your display, perhaps turn down the flow or re-angle that return nozzle a bit. If it was mine, I'd let it ride.

 

[EasternShoreman]

Additionally, If you have fish - they have an oxygen demand that grows according to biomass (more or less). So fish benefit from surface agitation in almost all cases. More fish = more oxygen demand

 

[legacy2mj]

Additionally, If you have fish - they have an oxygen demand that grows according to biomass (more or less). So fish benefit from surface agitation in almost all cases. More fish = more oxygen demand

I am collecting a good amount of micro bubbles on the back wall and other surfaces, but it hasn’t bothered me. I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t doing more harm than good.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From a chemical perspective, there's never any problem from excessive surface agitation unless one is trying to limit gas exchange due to excessive CO2 in the air above the aquarium causing low pH.

I've not seen any studies of O2 levels vs surface agitation levels, but I'm certain it depends entirely on how much aeration is taking place elsewhere, such as in a skimmer.

 

[legacy2mj]

From a chemical perspective, there's never any problem from excessive surface agitation unless one is trying to limit gas exchange due to excessive CO2 in the air above the aquarium causing low pH.

I've not seen any studies of O2 levels vs surface agitation levels, but I'm certain it depends entirely on how much aeration is taking place elsewhere, such as in a skimmer.

I read about the surrounding air bring co2 rich and the negative impact that has if there’s too much agitation to introduce more into the water. But that’s not the case with mine, my tank is in a large open space, plenty of good air, the ceiling is 30 feet above the tank.
It would be an interesting read to see if out in nature somebody identified all the negative impacts the increased O2 levels had on wildlife within the immediate areas of a waterfall.
Essentially that would be the same thing, just in a much larger scale.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I read about the surrounding air bring co2 rich and the negative impact that has if there’s too much agitation to introduce more into the water. But that’s not the case with mine, my tank is in a large open space, plenty of good air, the ceiling is 30 feet above the tank.

That's not really the proper perspective.

More surface agitation can drive out CO2 or bring it in. All it does is further drive the water toward equilibrium with however much CO2 is in the air. The amount of CO2 in your air depends on many factors, such as tightness of the home, number of people and pets around, cooking with a gas stove, etc.

It is an incorrect myth that more aeration drives pH in any particular direction. It can even drive the pH in different directions at different times of the day in a single aquarium depending on the amounts of CO2 in the water and the air used for aeration.

It would be an interesting read to see if out in nature somebody identified all the negative impacts the increased O2 levels had on wildlife within the immediate areas of a waterfall.
Essentially that would be the same thing, just in a much larger scale.

Again, that's not really the pertinent issue. Increased aeration can raise or lower O2, depending on where it starts relative to saturation, but it never drives it up above saturation, and saturation is a perfectly fine place to be for O2. Most reef tanks are close to it or above it during the daytime when photosynthesis is increasing O2. There's zero risk to driving toward O2 saturation.

FWIW, a waterfall may be more complicated than our systems since bubbles driven down deep will experience pressure that may raise both O2 and CO2 concentrations well above normal for equilibration with air at the surface.

 

[Jesse Sunday]

Thanks alot... now I need to monitor my home's Co2 levels.

Just ordered this from Inkbird!

If anyone else monitors their Co2, post your numbers please... and better yet, Co2 compared to their pH changes?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks alot... now I need to monitor my home's Co2 levels.

Just ordered this from Inkbird!

If anyone else monitors their Co2, post your numbers please... and better yet, Co2 compared to their pH changes?

Many folks do measure their home CO2 and track pH. The relationship at equilibrium is well understood. If the CO2 in the air doubles, pH in seawater equilibrated with it will drop by about 0.3 pH units. Of course, not all aquaria reach equilibration.

@jda

 

[Malcontent]

I read about the surrounding air bring co2 rich and the negative impact that has if there’s too much agitation to introduce more into the water. But that’s not the case with mine, my tank is in a large open space, plenty of good air, the ceiling is 30 feet above the tank.
It would be an interesting read to see if out in nature somebody identified all the negative impacts the increased O2 levels had on wildlife within the immediate areas of a waterfall.
Essentially that would be the same thing, just in a much larger scale.

Supersaturation can occur downstream of waterfalls and spillways. Dissolved oxygen isn't the issue there but total dissolved gas pressure.

If you displace nitrogen with oxygen you can get dissolved oxygen levels well above 100%. This is the case in fish transport where studies have found that most shipments still have >100% oxygen upon arrival. There's no issue because total dissolved gas pressure is normal.

 

[flashsmith]

I'm no scientist but I've never had micro bubbles because of too much surface agitation. If I ever get them they definitely come from my return pumps. Perhaps a small amount of air is finding its way through your return pump. Usually occurs when sump water level is getting low too get low. All I do is top off my ato and they go away.I'm running a 2000gph return pump with 3 different gyre pumps blasting the top of a 5ft. tank. Looks like a serious rolling boil and never have air bubbles. Always check the simple things first.

 

[twentyleagues]

I'm no scientist but I've never had micro bubbles because of too much surface agitation. If I ever get them they definitely come from my return pumps. Perhaps a small amount of air is finding its way through your return pump. Usually occurs when sump water level is getting low too get low. All I do is top off my ato and they go away.I'm running a 2000gph return pump with 3 different gyre pumps blasting the top of a 5ft. tank. Looks like a serious rolling boil and never have air bubbles. Always check the simple things first.

I agree. I have never seen surface agitation create micro bubbles. I do have RFGs on my returns that one will sometimes create a vortex from the surface behind it and draw air in creating micro bubbles. Return pumps, some power heads will do this same thing if placed to close to the surface.

 

[DCR]

I don't think it is the surface agitation that is causing the micro-bubbles but more likely the jet mixers that create low pressure zones that either vortex air or cause the dissolved air to degas.

 

[Jesse Sunday]

Many folks do measure their home CO2 and track pH. The relationship at equilibrium is well understood. If the CO2 in the air doubles, pH in seawater equilibrated with it will drop by about 0.3 pH units. Of course, not all aquaria reach equilibration.

@jda

The nerd in me is excited to track the change in house C02 vs tank pH. Thanks for the inspiration!

 

[jda]

I do not know how you can bring in o2 without the co2.

If you have low ph in your tank, then chances are that have enough co2 to be causing at least possible impacts to humans and pets. New standards for indoor air in schools and offices need to be less than 800 ppm. At this level, the tank pH is not that bad, but if you get over 1000 the tank pH can really drop and sleep usually is not as good, you can have trouble focusing, etc. - think the after-holiday meal where turkey got blamed, but it was likely all of the people in the home creating co2.

I don't like my co2 to get above 600 ppm. If it does, a few minutes with the windows open can change a lot of air and the temp in the home does not even move. Even if you need to warm the air up a bit, a few pennies of natural gas is a lot cheaper than a co2 scrubber, media and all of that - plus that just treats the tank and not the whole house for the humans and pets.

Any meter with a NDIR sensor is good. Do not get a meter with a different sensor - they are not accurate.

 

[ZaneTer]

Thanks alot... now I need to monitor my home's Co2 levels.

Just ordered this from Inkbird!

If anyone else monitors their Co2, post your numbers please... and better yet, Co2 compared to their pH changes?

I strongly suggest you return this meter. It will be measuring Volatile Organic Compounds and then guessing a figure. They are generally quite bad at measuring CO2. Non Dispersive Infra Red sensors are incredibly accurate but cost more in general.

 

[DCR]

The description say it uses an NDIR sensor.

 

[ZaneTer]

I see that, but raw component cost for a single NDIR is about $70 on its own. No display, Bluetooth, battery, box, shipping, wiring, temperature sensors or controller.

I am not saying it’s definitely not the real deal but it likely isn’t.

 

[DCR]

I bought a $50-60 unit several months ago and it works fine for my purposes. I am sure there were better and more expensive units, but I don't think you need to spend several hundred dollars on one for what we are using them for.

 

[ZaneTer]

That’s kind of the point of what I am saying, people go buying CO2 meters because they want to know CO2, not VOC levels. A normal meter is nothing more than a poor guess at levels, it may measure levels from exhaling to give a decent rough guide but it won’t measure anything coming from a boiler or stove.

If you want to measure CO2 make sure it uses a decent NDIR.