Treating for Possible Flukes

[PhilTheFish]

I have a newer 15g setup. It'll be four weeks old on Saturday. I have a clownfish and royal gramma in the tank. My royal gramma has been flashing for weeks. I thought his flashing was just a territorial thing until I sat down and researched it a week ago after my clownfish started doing it as well. I figured it was flukes or some kind of parasite so I did a 50% water change and then dosed with General Cure. The directions say dose again in 48 hours but I read several posts about how their eggs can hatch 5-7 days later and that it's best to hold off on the second dose for 5-7 days.

Today is day 6 so I did another 50% water change and dosed again.

Couple of questions:

1. Should I do another 50% water change in 48-72 hours to get out the residual GC and potentially dead parasites that have fallen off the fish? Or just pop my carbon back in, turn my protein skimmer back on, and let the tank do it's thing?

2. The fish haven't stopped flashing yet. If they continue to flash should I start another two-part round in a week?

All parameters are good with the water. Temps, salinity, PH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all look good to me. The fish are eating and swimming fine. The royal gramma seems to lean to one side a bit but other posts I read seem to indicate that's not an issue. The only odd thing I've seen in the past week is white stringy poop from the clownfish yesterday or the day before which seems to be a sign of parasites. I just happened to catch him doing that right at feeding time. I'm not sure if he's doing it on a regular basis or not.

 

[MnFish1]

1. Should I do another 50% water change in 48-72 hours to get out the residual GC and potentially dead parasites that have fallen off the fish? Or just pop my carbon back in, turn my protein skimmer back on, and let the tank do it's thing?

Carbon will remove the GC - as will time - i.e. I would not do any huge water changes. But just curious - are your fish still having problems (besides flashing)

2. The fish haven't stopped flashing yet. If they continue to flash should I start another two-part round in a week?

All parameters are good with the water. Temps, salinity, PH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all look good to me. The fish are eating and swimming fine. The royal gramma seems to lean to one side a bit but other posts I read seem to indicate that's not an issue. The only odd thing I've seen in the past week is white stringy poop from the clownfish yesterday or the day before which seems to be a sign of parasites. I just happened to catch him doing that right at feeding time. I'm not sure if he's doing it on a regular basis or not.

Have you tried Prazipro by our protocol? I might consider that. Of course - it would be great to know how your fish were quarantined?

1. Royal gramma's should not lean to one side or another unless (in the dark-sleeping)
2. Though white stringy poop seems to be a buzzword - the issue mainly seems related to food, as compared to disease. BTW - I'm not saying white stringy poop is not caused by intestinal parasites
3. Another option - is that the treatment should probably be prazipro alone.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have a newer 15g setup. It'll be four weeks old on Saturday. I have a clownfish and royal gramma in the tank. My royal gramma has been flashing for weeks. I thought his flashing was just a territorial thing until I sat down and researched it a week ago after my clownfish started doing it as well. I figured it was flukes or some kind of parasite so I did a 50% water change and then dosed with General Cure. The directions say dose again in 48 hours but I read several posts about how their eggs can hatch 5-7 days later and that it's best to hold off on the second dose for 5-7 days.

Today is day 6 so I did another 50% water change and dosed again.

Couple of questions:

1. Should I do another 50% water change in 48-72 hours to get out the residual GC and potentially dead parasites that have fallen off the fish? Or just pop my carbon back in, turn my protein skimmer back on, and let the tank do it's thing?

2. The fish haven't stopped flashing yet. If they continue to flash should I start another two-part round in a week?

All parameters are good with the water. Temps, salinity, PH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all look good to me. The fish are eating and swimming fine. The royal gramma seems to lean to one side a bit but other posts I read seem to indicate that's not an issue. The only odd thing I've seen in the past week is white stringy poop from the clownfish yesterday or the day before which seems to be a sign of parasites. I just happened to catch him doing that right at feeding time. I'm not sure if he's doing it on a regular basis or not.

Flashing can also be velvet. First confirm before adding any treatment. Some other signs of flukes will be swollen or red gills, heavy breathing, loss of appetite, yawning like effect and scratching as well as suddenly darting across tank.
Can you post a 20 second video of the habits you are seeing ?

 

[PhilTheFish]

But just curious - are your fish still having problems (besides flashing)

Eating fine and they both look fine to me. Just the flashing and the white stringy poop I saw one time from the clown.

Have you tried Prazipro by our protocol? I might consider that. Of course - it would be great to know how your fish were quarantined?

I couldn't get any Prazipro locally so I opted for General Cure since it also has praziquantel in it. Also liked the idea that I could cover some other stuff with the metronidazole that's also in General Cure. The clownfish was quarantined by the fish shop. I'm not sure about the royal gramma. I didn't do any at home quarantining.

 

[PhilTheFish]

Flashing can also be velvet. First confirm before adding any treatment. Some other signs of flukes will be swollen or red gills, heavy breathing, loss of appetite, yawning like effect and scratching as well as suddenly darting across tank.
Can you post a 20 second video of the habits you are seeing ?

Wouldn't velvet be more obvious at this point? The royal gramma has been flashing for weeks and the clownfish has been flashing for 7-10 days I'd say. I thought velvet takes fish out pretty quick? Wouldn't I also notice it on the fishes bodies? I don't have an eagle eye but I don't see anything on them?

I've seen scratching and darting across the tank. The clownfish hasn't lost her appetite but the royal gramma did lose his appetite the day before I started treatment. He loves to hide in his cave a lot but for 2-3 days he didn't eat and almost never came out of his cave. He's coming out more often now and eating fine.

I was able to get a video of the clownfish from up close. She flashes a lot in this clip. The tank is in my living room so I'm in view of it for a few hours a day and I normally see her doing that 2-3 times a day. Most of the time she's just swimming around happily.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NPNzocavBLfTDgcH8

The royal gramma is a lot harder to get since he likes to hide in his cave. I was only able to get a couple of clips from my couch so the shots are really zoomed in. He'll come out of his cave and flash against the rock there or sometimes against she sand. He flashes was more the clownfish. I think he had it first and passed it on to her.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/79ttQ1TaxGkvg4Uk7

 

[vetteguy53081]

Wouldn't velvet be more obvious at this point? The royal gramma has been flashing for weeks and the clownfish has been flashing for 7-10 days I'd say. I thought velvet takes fish out pretty quick? Wouldn't I also notice it on the fishes bodies? I don't have an eagle eye but I don't see anything on them?

I've seen scratching and darting across the tank. The clownfish hasn't lost her appetite but the royal gramma did lose his appetite the day before I started treatment. He loves to hide in his cave a lot but for 2-3 days he didn't eat and almost never came out of his cave. He's coming out more often now and eating fine.

I was able to get a video of the clownfish from up close. She flashes a lot in this clip. The tank is in my living room so I'm in view of it for a few hours a day and I normally see her doing that 2-3 times a day. Most of the time she's just swimming around happily.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NPNzocavBLfTDgcH8

The royal gramma is a lot harder to get since he likes to hide in his cave. I was only able to get a couple of clips from my couch so the shots are really zoomed in. He'll come out of his cave and flash against the rock there or sometimes against she sand. He flashes was more the clownfish. I think he had it first and passed it on to her.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/79ttQ1TaxGkvg4Uk7

Thank you for clear videos. Velvet is ruled out and I see the clown as overall normal. The gramma however just show the scratching often associated with flukes. You can treat in the tank with either ruby rally pro or PraziPro. If using Prazi, to be safe , dose at 80% of recommended and apply initial dosage known as an interval for 8 days, do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite. If running a skimmer, leave cup off first 24 hrs as skimmer will go nuts from the glycol solution in Prazi

 

[PhilTheFish]

Thank you for clear videos. Velvet is ruled out and I see the clown as overall normal. The gramma however just show the scratching often associated with flukes. You can treat in the tank with either ruby rally pro or PraziPro. If using Prazi, to be safe , dose at 80% of recommended and apply initial dosage known as an interval for 8 days, do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite. If running a skimmer, leave cup off first 24 hrs as skimmer will go nuts from the glycol solution in Prazi

I dosed with General Cure 6 days ago and just redosed again today after doing a water change. Isn't General Cure just as good as PraziPro since they both have the same ingredient praziquantel. Just wondering how prazi would make a difference?

 

[LAReefer4Life]

I dosed with General Cure 6 days ago and just redosed again today after doing a water change. Isn't General Cure just as good as PraziPro since they both have the same ingredient praziquantel. Just wondering how prazi would make a difference?

Prazipro is a slightly higher concentration than GC.

GC contains metro as well, which should only be in used in QT setup vs. Prazipro is considered a reef safe medication. Metro is not beneficial for fighting flukes.

 

[PhilTheFish]

Prazipro is a slightly higher concentration than GC.

GC contains metro as well, which should only be in used in QT setup vs. Prazipro is considered a reef safe medication. Metro is not beneficial for fighting flukes.

So I should ditch the GC if I need to do another treatment and use Prazi? I don't have any corals in my tank right now so I wasn't worried about the reef safe aspect.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I dosed with General Cure 6 days ago and just redosed again today after doing a water change. Isn't General Cure just as good as PraziPro since they both have the same ingredient praziquantel. Just wondering how prazi would make a difference?

general cure has level Prazi in it and Prazi Pro which is praziquantel is more effective

 

[LAReefer4Life]

So I should ditch the GC if I need to do another treatment and use Prazi? I don't have any corals in my tank right now so I wasn't worried about the reef safe aspect.

GC is effective against flukes so if you're not worried about the reef safe aspect than all good. I do prefer Prazipro as personal preference.

I would wait though on the second dose as it is more effective administered on the 8th or 9th day after the 1st treatment. Keep in mind that 3rd or 4th dose may be needed to beat the life cycle.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Agree - you may need 3 or 4 treatments to break the life cycle on egg laying flukes. I use pure praziquantel at 2.2 ppm. Prazipro is my next choice. I forget the level of prazi in GC, and I’m out of town and can’t look it up.

 

[PhilTheFish]

Thanks for the input everyone. Just to be crystal clear...does the below schedule look right. Should I do water changes before the next two doses or do I just put the carbon back in and start up the protein skimmer after 48 hours?

Done:
Friday, March 8th - 50% water change, removed carbon, stopped protein skimmer, first dose of GC.
Thursday, March 14th - 50% water change, second dose of GC.

To Do?:
Between Wednesday, March 20th & Friday, March 22nd - Possible third dose of GC or switch to Prazi.
Between Tuesday, March 26th & Wednesday, March 28th - Possible third dose of GC or second dose of Prazi.

 

[PhilTheFish]

The Royal Gramma hid and didn't eat at all yesterday. He's still hiding today so I decided to shine a light on him to get a good look at him. Am I seeing white spots on him (ich?)? Does his eye look a little funky?

 

[PhilTheFish]

I took those pictures of the royal gramma at 8:25am. I checked on him again around 9:15am and he was face down in his cave. I thought he might be dead but after touching him his fins started to move. I checked on him again at 10:10am and found him dead on top of the live rock. I'm guessing he briefly came out of the cave and died while I wasn't looking. I took photos of him for you guys to look at. Do you guys notice anything obvious? I have two clownfish, 3 blue legged hermit crabs, and one trochus snail in the tank (no corals). My main goal now is to ensure the other two clownfish live. Neither of them show any signs of being sick right now. Eating fine, swimming fine, etc. I don't have a quarantine tank. My plan is to continue with flukes treatment just in case that was the issue with the RG. I bought PraziPro and will dose that this week and again next week which will make a total of four doses. I'm hoping that flukes is what got the RG and that I'm past the issues now?

 

[PhilTheFish]

Just tested water.

Temp: 77-79
Salinity: 1.026 (calibrated with 35ppm solution)
pH: 8
Ammonia: Sera kit always reads .5 but Seachem badge says zero.
Nitrite: Sera kit test goes from 0 to .5. It's somewhere between there, possibly .5. Every test for last few weeks has read .5 even after water changes.
Nitrate: 10

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Just tested water.

Temp: 77-79
Salinity: 1.026 (calibrated with 35ppm solution)
pH: 8
Ammonia: Sera kit always reads .5 but Seachem badge says zero.
Nitrite: Sera kit test goes from 0 to .5. It's somewhere between there, possibly .5. Every test for last few weeks has read .5 even after water changes.
Nitrate: 10

Sorry to see....

I just got back home and checked the GC package - the dose as written on the box is 2.0 ppm praziquantel. A normal full dose is 2.2, so this is close enough that if the issue was flukes, it would have worked. While that dosing may not have made a permanent cure (due to hatching eggs that require additional treatments) it would have been enough to alleviate the symptoms for at least a few weeks.

That leads me to think that flukes wasn't the core issue here. In terms of damage control, how is the clownfish?

 

[PhilTheFish]

Sorry to see....

I just got back home and checked the GC package - the dose as written on the box is 2.0 ppm praziquantel. A normal full dose is 2.2, so this is close enough that if the issue was flukes, it would have worked. While that dosing may not have made a permanent cure (due to hatching eggs that require additional treatments) it would have been enough to alleviate the symptoms for at least a few weeks.

That leads me to think that flukes wasn't the core issue here. In terms of damage control, how is the clownfish?

The clownfish will dart occasionally but she looks fine, is eating normal, isn't scratching that I've seen. Do the photos of the dead RG help with anything? I've only had him for four weeks so maybe he was sick already at the LFS. He was probably flashing the whole time. I just didn't realize it was a sign of illness until last week. I thought it was a funny territorial thing he was doing.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The clownfish will dart occasionally but she looks fine, is eating normal, isn't scratching that I've seen. Do the photos of the dead RG help with anything? I've only had him for four weeks so maybe he was sick already at the LFS. He was probably flashing the whole time. I just didn't realize it was a sign of illness until last week. I thought it was a funny territorial thing he was doing.

Photos of dead fish are tough to use diagnostically - fish change after death, and the time after death is the variable. I do see glassy eyes and disrupted scales. That can be a sign of flukes or protozoan disease.

 

[PhilTheFish]

Photos of dead fish are tough to use diagnostically - fish change after death, and the time after death is the variable. I do see glassy eyes and disrupted scales. That can be a sign of flukes or protozoan disease.

That picture was taken within 30-45 mins of his death. He was alive an hour earlier and when I came back he was dead. His scales and eyes looked just like that before his death. The photos I posted of him in his cave were less than two hours before his death and his scales and eyes looked like that as well. I took a close look at my clownfish when I was feeding her and I think I see a couple of white spots on her back dorsal fin. I'm going to try to get some photos.