Triton DOC

[ksed]

Triton has released DOC testing as well as carbon source supplements. I can understand the reasoning of testing DOC but why add carbon source when they recommend algae as a form of nutrient uptake? Are they giving people an option to carbon dose now?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t know the basis of the test, nor how one would decide what is a good or bad doc level, especially without knowing what those molecules actually are in any given tank.

 

[ksed]

Interesting Randy!

 

[Tony Thompson]

Triton has released DOC testing as well as carbon source supplements. I can understand the reasoning of testing DOC but why add carbon source when they recommend algae as a form of nutrient uptake? Are they giving people an option to carbon dose now?

Hi, @ksed very interesting subject DOC, I have been interested in the subject myself with regards Skimmer cup analysis, Carbon Dosing methods and microbial processes. The excellent BRS team have just posted a very interesting video that briefly mentions DOC as part of the Renfield Ratio, whilst exploring the role of Nitrogen in a Triton based aquarium. Whilst not giving any definitive answers I personally found it very interesting. I appreciate the complexities of evaluating DOC and look forward to the Triton Test Reviews.

Check on the link to the topic on R2R, Its on the video part 20.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-trials-ultra-low-maintenance-tanks-brstv-investigates.341149/

Great work @randyBRS .

 

[ksed]

Hi Tony,
I saw that video. It will be interesting to see how they will go about doing it and and why introduce carbon dosing with it was all about algae base systems.

 

[ksed]

I hear that it’s possible why CD it could change or cause the bacterial populations on the coral to bloom and cause STN.
I see a lot of algae based systems making their way back. Perhaps it’s a safer way of exporting?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

"Tony Thompson, post: 4744587, member: 71338" The excellent BRS team have just posted a very interesting video that briefly mentions DOC as part of the Renfield Ratio, whilst exploring the role of Nitrogen in a Triton based aquarium. .

Corals take up inorganic carbon (as CO2 itself or bicarbonate as the source of the CO2) and typically are net producers of DOC when healthy, although not always. If bleached they can become net users of DOC, and they can in other situations as well.

To use DOC levels in a Redfield ratio of carbon to N and P nutrients to suggest the uptake needs for corals use is not seemingly appropriate since most of their carbon comes from other sources.

Can heterotrophic uptake of dissolved organic carbon and zooplankton mitigate carbon budget deficits in annually bleached corals?
https://aquaticbiogeochem.osu.edu/sites/aquaticbiogeochem.osu.edu/files/Levas et al (2016) Coral Reefs.pdf

Throughout the study, non-bleached control P. astreoides and O. faveolata released DOC (Fig. 4f, i), consistent with findings from most previous studies of healthy nonbleached coral DOC fluxes (Crossland 1987; Wild et al. 2004, 2005, 2008, 2010a, b; Tanaka et al. 2008, 2009; Haas et al. 2010; Naumann et al. 2010; Levas et al. 2015). At the same time, non-bleached control P. divaricata took up DOC after the single bleaching event (Fig. 4c), just as did healthy Pocillopora sp., Fungia sp., and Stylophora pistillata (Naumann et al. 2010; Tremblay et al. 2012). However, similar to P. astreoides and O. faveolata, nonbleached control P. divaricata released DOC during the remainder of the study (Fig. 4c). These findings further show that while DOC typically represents a loss of C from healthy corals, it can sometimes also be a source of C.

 

[Tony Thompson]

Corals take up inorganic carbon (as CO2 itself or bicarbonate as the source of the CO2) and typically are net producers of DOC when healthy, although not always. If bleached they can become net users of DOC, and they can in other situations as well.

To use DOC levels in a Redfield ratio of carbon to N and P nutrients to suggest the uptake needs for corals use is not seemingly appropriate since most of their carbon comes from other sources.

Can heterotrophic uptake of dissolved organic carbon and zooplankton mitigate carbon budget deficits in annually bleached corals?
https://aquaticbiogeochem.osu.edu/sites/aquaticbiogeochem.osu.edu/files/Levas et al (2016) Coral Reefs.pdf

Throughout the study, non-bleached control P. astreoides and O. faveolata released DOC (Fig. 4f, i), consistent with findings from most previous studies of healthy nonbleached coral DOC fluxes (Crossland 1987; Wild et al. 2004, 2005, 2008, 2010a, b; Tanaka et al. 2008, 2009; Haas et al. 2010; Naumann et al. 2010; Levas et al. 2015). At the same time, non-bleached control P. divaricata took up DOC after the single bleaching event (Fig. 4c), just as did healthy Pocillopora sp., Fungia sp., and Stylophora pistillata (Naumann et al. 2010; Tremblay et al. 2012). However, similar to P. astreoides and O. faveolata, nonbleached control P. divaricata released DOC during the remainder of the study (Fig. 4c). These findings further show that while DOC typically represents a loss of C from healthy corals, it can sometimes also be a source of C.

Hi Randy, once again thanks for the link and explanation. First I must apologize for the typo in my comment "Renfield" Living quite close to the town of Whitby, I think I must have subconsciously referred to a character from Bram Stokers Novel, Dracula.

The little , and I mean that in the literal sense, that I understand about the Biology and Chemistry in the Reef Aquarium, would lead me to surmise, that decoding the needs and accurately measuring all of the active components with regards C:N: P and its influence on the biology of the aquarium, is far to complex for me to even attempt to create a conclusion.

I do however think, that like many other aspects of Marine Chemistry and Biology, there is so much for us to explore. I find it very interesting that Triton seem to be making an attempt to include this in there inclusive methodology. I personally do not apply the Triton tools to any of my aquariums. I find it far to involved for my taste. I aim to keep my workload and time spent on my aquarium maintenance to a minimum. That way I keep the boundaries of hobby and obsession in line. I prefer to use regular water changes with NSW level salt brand and Prodibio dosing every 15 days. I don`t have "show calibre tanks" to take a quote from BRS TV. However I immensely enjoy observing my animals, who on the whole seem very satisfied with their environment. I must admit to the odd delicate coral that I impulsively buy, that ends up on my desktop as a bleached ornament.;Happy

Getting back on topic. I was more interested in the seemingly common occurrence of certain side effects of running C: N : P ratio`s at the far ends of the Redfield Ratio. I have also come across numerous comments from reefers that even when the balance is restored, find that similar problems can crop up. This is the main reason I was interested in the inclusion by BRS TV of the Carbon element of the ratio. I fully respect the complexities involved by referencing this third element of the ratio, but l also believe it a valid area of exploration.

I leave it to our expert and qualified reefing community peers, such as yourself, to guide us through this exploration. I am sure you and others will have a full review of the triton extension once it is made available. I thoroughly look forward to you comments on any future review of there service.

Best wishes from over the pond.

Just needed to re edit this as whenever I put the C:N together I get a funny pink face icon appearing instead of P. How strange. Would like to inspect the code to see why this happens.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm certainly happy to see a DOC test kit. Salifert had one for a while, but it never took off.

I think it might be useful to see how things like skimming and GAC and Purigen, etc. impact DOC (assuming the measurement works), but I think we are a long way from suggesting what values are good, bad, or otherwise. )

 

[Tony Thompson]

Hi Tony,
I saw that video. It will be interesting to see how they will go about doing it and and why introduce carbon dosing with it was all about algae base systems.

Hi, @ksed , I understood the video was more about maintaining the ratio of DOC in relation to N, not carbon dosing simply to reduce Nitrogen in the form of Nitrate. The problem as I understood it, was that using a very efficient Nitrate export method such as the Algae Fuge. This was showing a very low reading of available nitrate in the tank. The ratio of N could therefore fall outside their preferred ratio. Therefore instead of just adding a source of Nitrate to re balance the system. They would explore the relationship to DOC as well.

I think the point that Randy made is extremely important. Its quite common in this hobby. For manufacturers to come up with numbers but a totally different ball game to suggest what effects the numbers have on our tanks.

Looking forward to a full review.

 

[bubblemytip]

Even if Triton is testing for N, P and C, I imagine it is very difficult to determine the microfauna and microbe make-up of any given reef tank very easily and so testing NPC in relation to how some ideal biological community uses those elements seems fraught with assumptions about the biology of any tank. Some aquariums might have different bacteria or different ratios of the same bacteria that require different ratios of various elements to function 'optimally' - whatever that means... I don't think one size fits all.

That said, it will be interesting to see how Triton interprets results and to see what advice is given.