Trouble cycling - nitrite not going down

[mwm5461]

Hey all - I'm looking for some helpful advice on next steps to take in my cycling process, which has been somewhat problematic (this is my first saltwater tank).

I started cycling with the shrimp method on 9/3 and left the shrimp in my Nuvo Peninsula 14 gallon tank for about 3 days. I continued to leave it in because my Seachem Ammonia Alert was continuously reading 0 ammonia. However, when my API test kit came in the mail and I took my first ammonia reading it was off the charts so after some time passed and some reading on forums I completed two 40% water changes to try and bring the ammonia down. After the water changes my ammonia seemed to dip so I was happy but since then I'm consistently getting what seems to be off the charts nitrite readings and my nitrates don't seem to be increasing at all. I've also been using MicroBacter7 throughout the whole process to try to help grow the beneficial bacteria.

Does anyone have some helpful advice on what I should do? I'm now about 3.5 weeks in so am I just being impatient or are my nitrites too high and do I need to keep doing water changes? I appreciate any helpful advice you can provide. In hindsight I realize the shrimp method isn't the best since it seems it resulted in adding way too much ammonia to my system. I also attached an image of my ammonia, nitrite, nitrate readings that I've been getting. Let me know if you need any additional details. Thanks!

 

[Flippers4pups]

Hey all - I'm looking for some helpful advice on next steps to take in my cycling process, which has been somewhat problematic (this is my first saltwater tank).

I started cycling with the shrimp method on 9/3 and left the shrimp in my Nuvo Peninsula 14 gallon tank for about 3 days. I continued to leave it in because my Seachem Ammonia Alert was continuously reading 0 ammonia. However, when my API test kit came in the mail and I took my first ammonia reading it was off the charts so after some time passed and some reading on forums I completed two 40% water changes to try and bring the ammonia down. After the water changes my ammonia seemed to dip so I was happy but since then I'm consistently getting what seems to be off the charts nitrite readings and my nitrates don't seem to be increasing at all. I've also been using MicroBacter7 throughout the whole process to try to help grow the beneficial bacteria.

Does anyone have some helpful advice on what I should do? I'm now about 3.5 weeks in so am I just being impatient or are my nitrites too high and do I need to keep doing water changes? I appreciate any helpful advice you can provide. In hindsight I realize the shrimp method isn't the best since it seems it resulted in adding way too much ammonia to my system. I also attached an image of my ammonia, nitrite, nitrate readings that I've been getting. Let me know if you need any additional details. Thanks!

By doing the water changes, you most likely stalled the cycling process. Leave the tank alone till your Nitrate rises and your nitrite goes 0.

You may need to add some ammonia back into the tank to get it going again. Flake food, shrimp, pure ammonia. ... .

 

[RichtheReefer21]

Is it possible that he is showing nitrites on his test results due to the nitrates as well like in my red sea kit from time to time? (same regeants/methods)

 

[Flippers4pups]

Once his nitrites rise and cap out, they will drop and nitrates will rise.

It's quite possible to show both at the same time as the one falls and the other rises.

 

[brandon429]

post full tank pics pls

nitrite isn't needed to know in cycling, only what ammonia does, and how long a given set of dry rocks have been underwater cant wait to see pics to get a total picture

 

[mwm5461]

My apologies, looks like I accidentally posted this thread twice so I'm copying over some of the responses from the other thread and I'll delete that other one. From what I've read seems that my water change slowed down my cycle. Why is this the case? Doesn't the beneficial bacteria grow on the sand and rock and not in the water? Just wondering for my own knowledge.

Don’t worry, you may just have stalled the cycle by adding too much ammonia. The same happend to me, my nitrite refused to go down, even with ammonia showing almost zero. Then one day, it was all converted.

Just be patient - avoid ammonia source for now.

As a side question, are you cycling with live rock? If dry rock, why not control your ammonia with ammonium chloride?

Hello & Welcome MW to R2R ! You dropped into the right place for advice .
3.5 weeks seems like a lot of time. Considering the super high Am levels & how Ya started ot will take some time to balance . I'd think You should sit back & wait . The cycle will work.

post full tank pics pls

nitrite isn't needed to know in cycling, only what ammonia does, and how long a given set of dry rocks have been underwater cant wait to see pics to get a total picture

I attached some pics of the tank brandon429. I started to get some algae when I was running a light cycle so I turned them off while cycling so the algae would stop growing.

 

[KrisReef]

That is a beautiful set-up. Turn the lights off until the cycle is done, and follow what other said regarding the cycle. GL!

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/

There’s my take on cycling. In my opinion it applies here as you cycled group A rock + boosters for both bac and feed/ammonia and you’ve met the ~30 day mark. Per the thread that’s cycled, we don’t list where water changes will stop a cycle but I know that’s commonly said in posts...all I can do is offer a deep investigation above, with tank tests. We don’t use nitrate testing or nitrite testing for reasons listed, though it’s ok to test for them if someone wants to. We don’t need the info there, we use time in submersion to call a cycle complete.

A verification test exists, an absolute proof.


A quick one for four bucks.
Start with a full water change ironically

Then, score off amazon some liquid ammonium chloride drops from Dr Tim’s

Add only the amount to your tank estimated to produce 1 ppm per directions, estimate how few drops that will be off the bottle directions and put it in the tank. Don’t go to 2 ppm, go to 1 ppm #of drops for specific reasons.

Give the system twenty minutes after dosing then run an ammonia test, it should read slightly detectable amounts, we don’t want 2 ppm, we want barest amnt you can get to read from an ammonia test that previously showed zero (or .25) ammonia in the water.

Retest in 24 hours from then, see if test is back to zero, that’s the oxidation test which indicates cycle completion but we only run it at day thirty or close to it, you are close enough.

If it goes back down, you do a full water change and then add some snails and some zoanthids or nice starter corals. Don’t go heavy, or fish, we r fresh out of the gate here but you can begin if the oxidation test passes

Per the thread, the direct measure of a group A cycle is time underwater, you’ve met, and a passed oxidation test. It’s a two fold qualification and we don’t factor nitrite or nitrate into it.

 

[mwm5461]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/

There’s my take on cycling. In my opinion it applies here as you cycled group A rock + boosters for both bac and feed/ammonia and you’ve met the ~30 day mark. Per the thread that’s cycled, we don’t list where water changes will stop a cycle but I know that’s commonly said in posts...all I can do is offer a deep investigation above, with tank tests. We don’t use nitrate testing or nitrite testing for reasons listed, though it’s ok to test for them if someone wants to. We don’t need the info there, we use time in submersion to call a cycle complete.

A verification test exists, an absolute proof.


A quick one for four bucks.
Start with a full water change ironically

Then, score off amazon some liquid ammonium chloride drops from Dr Tim’s

Add only the amount to your tank estimated to produce 1 ppm per directions, estimate how few drops that will be off the bottle directions and put it in the tank. Don’t go to 2 ppm, go to 1 ppm #of drops for specific reasons.

Give the system twenty minutes after dosing then run an ammonia test, it should read slightly detectable amounts, we don’t want 2 ppm, we want barest amnt you can get to read from an ammonia test that previously showed zero (or .25) ammonia in the water.

Retest in 24 hours from then, see if test is back to zero, that’s the oxidation test which indicates cycle completion but we only run it at day thirty or close to it, you are close enough.

If it goes back down, you do a full water change and then add some snails and some zoanthids or nice starter corals. Don’t go heavy, or fish, we r fresh out of the gate here but you can begin if the oxidation test passes

Per the thread, the direct measure of a group A cycle is time underwater, you’ve met, and a passed oxidation test. It’s a two fold qualification and we don’t factor nitrite or nitrate into it.

Thanks for the very helpful advice. To follow-up I'm slightly confused with what you mean when you say "A verification test exists, an absolute proof". Can you please explain further? I also greatly appreciate if you could provide links for the products you recommended I get to wrap-up the cycling process. Thanks!

 

[brandon429]

We want to know if your cycle is complete, I suspect it may be.

If the cycle is done, then no concerns about params exist and your thread is a concern over nitrites. The first post we link why we won't test for nitrite

A few posts into the thread has the links for ammonium chloride, we add ammonia to your tank vs a shrimp so that we can get exacting amounts.
Then we test in 24 hours as above and that tells us if your cycle is done where you can begin reefing. The proof test uses only ammonia measures

 

[mwm5461]

Okay I understand now. Thanks! Some of Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride will arrive from Amazon on Sunday so I should get a better idea of where I am on Monday and will post the results. For calculating the ammonium chloride, what is the best method for knowing my tank water volume? I know it's a 14 gallon tank but I think it took around 10 gallons to fill with 10 lbs. of dry rock and 10lbs. of sand. Also, since it's an all-in-one system how does that come into play in calculating the tank water volume for how much ammonium chloride to put in? I just want to make sure I don't mess anything up and overdose.

Last question, should I be putting in the filter media I got for the tank during the cycling? I have a filter basket that I plan to have the following media in:
First basket: Poly-filter - https://www.marinedepot.com/Poly_Fi...kidaYkCxagHnCHOjr2jUYUrnIsO17_VBoCV8sQAvD_BwE
Second basket: Chemi pure blue - https://www.marinedepot.com/Boyd_Ch...terprises_Chemi_Pure-BE16752-FIFMCHRM-vi.html
Third basket: Chemi pure blue

 

[KrisReef]

I would add filter media after you have confirmed the cycle is completed. The goal of the cycle is to grow bacteria in the tank that will accommodate your bioload when you start adding critters. After the test shows that ammonia spike is quickly removed, then you will know that your population of bacteria has been established in the tank. Then you can add in the filter media (poly/ chemi pure ) into the baskets They will also grow bacteria on them. What you want to avoid is growing all your filtration bacteria on the removable media because that will be problematic later when you change media out- if you removed your biofilter with them.

You probably have at least 10 gallons water in your tank, any additives you add in must be dosed for that 10 gallons amount as that is where the additives reside and are measured from by your test kits. I have drained all the water from my tank to move it, and when I did I carefully tallied the 5 gallon buckets of water I removed so that I would know how much water is really in my system. (I have a "120" gallon main tank, an attached "50" gallon fish tank (-those gallons are the mfgr's numbers), and an 18 gallon rubbermaid tote for a sump, which means I have "188 gallons" capacity. I have measured my water volume to be 150 gallons. Tank manufacturer volume names tend to be estimates that are generally not reliable for actual volume, which is best measured by emptying all the water into calibrated 5 gallon bucket(s) during a water change.

Another dry method is to use cubic foot = 7.48 gallons, measuring the inside volume of your tank to estimate the max water capacity, and then estimate rock and sand displacement to come up with your gallons.

Either way, it is best to add chemical under estimating actual water volume to avoid over dosing the tank. Dose and measure, when you are under it is easier to add more than to have to remove water to dilute after you have added too much.

Long screed, hth.

 

[tankstudy]

Based off your records, your initial ammonia input was pretty high. If you have a large number of available bacteria, especially if you use bottled bacteria, this gets converted pretty quickly and nitrites will generally sky rocket above the 5 ppm. Around this number, from what I have read and been told by Dr. Tim, the consumption of nitrite greatly slows. I have had this happen before and it may take weeks to months before that comes down.

You have a few options available to you at this point:

A) You can sit and wait for nitrites to fall. This can take a very long time. As mentioned earlier, weeks to months is what I have seen from my own experimentation.

B) You can do a 50% water change. This will dilute your water so that you only have 2.5 ppm nitrite. Once below the 5.0 ppm nitrite mark, the cycle usually continues again pretty quickly.

You generally don't want to start with more than 4 ppm ammonia. Too much initially combined bottled bacteria and nitrites tend to sky rocket in to this inhibition zone.

Once nitrite zeros out, you can add more ammonia to see if its converted within 24 hours. Make sure it's less than 4 ppm ammonia. Also, you will not be able to test for this once you dose so make sure you read the recommended dosage to achieve the correct amount of ammonia. If you dose and try to test to see if you get 4 ppm ammonia, you'll likely end up overdosing and end up back where you were before.

Generally, I prefer to start with just 2 ppm to avoid overdosing and then work towards 4 ppm for a much stronger bacterial population.

 

[mwm5461]

Based off your records, your initial ammonia input was pretty high. If you have a large number of available bacteria, especially if you use bottled bacteria, this gets converted pretty quickly and nitrites will generally sky rocket above the 5 ppm. Around this number, from what I have read and been told by Dr. Tim, the consumption of nitrite greatly slows. I have had this happen before and it may take weeks to months before that comes down.

You have a few options available to you at this point:

A) You can sit and wait for nitrites to fall. This can take a very long time. As mentioned earlier, weeks to months is what I have seen from my own experimentation.

B) You can do a 50% water change. This will dilute your water so that you only have 2.5 ppm nitrite. Once below the 5.0 ppm nitrite mark, the cycle usually continues again pretty quickly.

You generally don't want to start with more than 4 ppm ammonia. Too much initially combined bottled bacteria and nitrites tend to sky rocket in to this inhibition zone.

Once nitrite zeros out, you can add more ammonia to see if its converted within 24 hours. Make sure it's less than 4 ppm ammonia. Also, you will not be able to test for this once you dose so make sure you read the recommended dosage to achieve the correct amount of ammonia. If you dose and try to test to see if you get 4 ppm ammonia, you'll likely end up overdosing and end up back where you were before.

Generally, I prefer to start with just 2 ppm to avoid overdosing and then work towards 4 ppm for a much stronger bacterial population.

So based on the options you noted which will probably be more efficient? I got the Dr Tim's ammonium chloride today that @brandon429 recommended so hopefully by tomorrow I'll know whether my tank can get rid of the ammonia in 24 hours. Thanks again for the help!

 

[brandon429]

Nice!

Remember that one change-up: test the clean condition not the waste water been in there a month... full water change or close to it, that way we know regardless of test kit accuracy you have no ammonia in the tank

The full water change specifically exports water column bacteria if any, those aren't the ones we want to know about. Starting with full water change means any oxidation being done in 24 hours is certainly coming from tank surfaces rocks sand etc

Then it's brought to about 1 ppm not higher

Then tested in 24 hours, that's the exact oxidation test for sure can't wait to see. At thirty days in any hydrated condition, there's supposed to be enough bac on surfaces to pass an entry oxidation test

The final irony is that you don't have to -zero- the ammonia in 24 hours, you need only to detect downward movement after the full change. Based on your chart above it should able to... We're not at the ideal forty day mark, but MB7 counts as a booster

A starting bioload is still less ammonia daily than that test measures; fish aren't used up front in the bulletproof reef system, they're delayed as the other life forms go first and in that order the tank matures just fine never measuring ammonia again after this upcoming test. The full takeaway we want to impart is that submersion time reliably cycles tanks, saving us from parameter tinkering if we've got 30-40 days to wait. Your testing with that kind of charting above is helpful, I'm interested to see your nitrite as well after digesting 1ppm/ to see if it's in the known ratios. Only basing the test on 1 ppm and not the last thirty days metabolite stew, that big initial water change, streamlines your final cycle assessment.

 

[tankstudy]

So based on the options you noted which will probably be more efficient? I got the Dr Tim's ammonium chloride today that @brandon429 recommended so hopefully by tomorrow I'll know whether my tank can get rid of the ammonia in 24 hours. Thanks again for the help!

If your in need of a tank ASAP, I'd recommend doing a 50% water change. This will bring it below the 5 ppm marker and get your cycle going again. A lot of times, from my own experimentation, this will cause the cycle to complete within a few days versus weeks to months if your using bottled bacteria.

For now, do not add anymore ammonia. This is only going to add more nitrites and your already around the 5 ppm marker.

 

[mwm5461]

Alright all, update. So I did a 4-gallon water change and remeasured all my parameters. Attached below are pictures. It seems that my ammonia is close to 0ppm but even after the water change nitrites seem crazy high. I know @brandon429 said not to be concerned about them but it does seem strange that even after the water change they seem to be off the charts high. I also can't really tell whether nitrates are 5ppm or 10ppm (I think the photo shows it a little darker). I'm kind of hating these API test kits with distinguishing between the various colors. Should I do another water change tomorrow? Thanks!

 

[brandon429]

You’ll have to pick one of the procedures and go with it, not mix em

Mine requires full water change to reset the pallet. Shrimp cycling produces higher than normal numbers vs accurate liquid ammonium chloride cycling and a full wc plus new oxidation test is the way we get into line. my option won’t work with a four gallon water change since that amount won’t reset the water away from wastewater levels...we are still testing those but need to assess the clean condition per the thread. If you don’t want to full wc, wait longer for the items to come down. We listed in the thread how some nitrite testing is a flat out misread, but ammonia is what we watch. Don’t mix the two approaches, tank study’s method will work but it will require more than thirty days time since you are basing completion off a parameter where 5x the normal nitrite has to be cleared than if we did a careful 1 ppm max off pure ammonium chloride. Shrimp cycling is messy, cheaper, and packs in way more metabolites into the testing than clean liquid AC cycling.

 

[mwm5461]

You’ll have to pick one of the procedures and go with it, not mix em

Mine requires full water change to reset the pallet. Shrimp cycling produces higher than normal numbers vs accurate liquid ammonium chloride cycling and a full wc plus new oxidation test is the way we get into line. my option won’t work with a four gallon water change since that amount won’t reset the water away from wastewater levels...we are still testing those but need to assess the clean condition per the thread. If you don’t want to full wc, wait longer for the items to come down. We listed in the thread how some nitrite testing is a flat out misread, but ammonia is what we watch. Don’t mix the two approaches, tank study’s method will work but it will require more than thirty days time since you are basing completion off a parameter where 5x the normal nitrite has to be cleared than if we did a careful 1 ppm max off pure ammonium chloride. Shrimp cycling is messy, cheaper, and packs in way more metabolites into the testing than clean liquid AC cycling.

My understanding was that you were presenting a way to see if I'm done cycling whereas @tankstudy was presenting the methods to take if it's not done cycling. Since my ammonia wasn't gone in 24 hours I proceeded to do the large water change to try and lower my nitrites as @tankstudy suggested. I understand that the clean liquid AC cycling is a better alternative than the shrimp method but since I already did the shrimp method I guess there's no turning back.

Since the tank isn't done cycling I just want to take the next steps to get it completed in the most efficient manner. My understanding is to do that based on @tankstudy 's posts is to continue water changes until my nitrites are lowered. Let me know if this is not the right understanding.

 

[brandon429]

the tank is done cycling, but we're not testing that here.


its ok to wait until nitrite goes to zero on the test, only a partial amnt was changed out. The thread states that any boosted hydrated surface cycles within 30 days, so does every google cycling chart (but they didn't acct for massive overdose from intention rot accumulation, that takes longer to balance) your nitrite isn't affecting ammonia performance we can see, that lines up with ammonia actions in the thread based on 30 days too. cycling when testing all three is very confusing, its what the majority does agreed.