Deep sand bed questions
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AQSstudent
Community Member
Great question!
What matters most is that your deep sand bed become anoxic - that's when all your beneficial denitrifying and whatnot happens. Typically, a depth of 4-12 inches of very fine sand is used. With more large-grained sands, more water can flow through; this can somewhat negate the beneficial effects of having a deep sand bed in the first place.
No, you do not need a light - in fact, it's been suggested that the beneficial bacteria that break down nitrate and other nitrogenous wastes are photophobic. In essence, the darker your deep sand bed, the better. Besides, if it was well lit, it would most likely become another growing spot for hair algae and cyanobacteria.
What matters most is that your deep sand bed become anoxic - that's when all your beneficial denitrifying and whatnot happens. Typically, a depth of 4-12 inches of very fine sand is used. With more large-grained sands, more water can flow through; this can somewhat negate the beneficial effects of having a deep sand bed in the first place.
No, you do not need a light - in fact, it's been suggested that the beneficial bacteria that break down nitrate and other nitrogenous wastes are photophobic. In essence, the darker your deep sand bed, the better. Besides, if it was well lit, it would most likely become another growing spot for hair algae and cyanobacteria.
OP
OP
JOKER
2500 Club Member
Ok thanks I will plan as large as I can get with no light except for maintenance in sump. I plan at least 6" up to 12" so I should be good there. As for flow I plan to be able to adjust after tank is started. I do plan to start this several months before tank is going just to be sure it is mature.
mrjlopez731
Active Member
Amazing reflection
Streetcred
Active Member
You need to get Calfo in on this, he's the go-to-guru !:smile:
OP
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JOKER
2500 Club Member
I would really like to get more input. All the reading I do on deep sand beds, they really work. When you ask questions no one wants to talk about them. I am all about less maintenance and more enjoyment out of my tank. I don't mind water changes, I don't mind cleaning, I just don't like using chemicals and quick fixes. I am looking for something to help with stability and help with nitrates and phosphates.
Streetcred
Active Member
Hi Corey ... I've invited Anthony Calfo to comment. Check the FB page in case he does. It may be a good idea for the proprietors of the site to have a chat with him about hosting his works here.
s2minute
Community Member
DSB questions
1) No DSB in DT...make a (remote deep sand bed), RDSB instead.
2) Sugar sized sand. The grain size and texture of the old South Down play sand is best.
3) NO sand sifters except the worms and pods that move into it.
4) DON'T touch it EVER. Let the critters that live in it pull the stuff down and eat it.
5) Compartmentalize it. Make 12 compartments so IF, after 5-15 years you decide you want to,(which you should not have to), change it, you can change out one compartment per month over a years time.
6) Depth of RDSB should be 6-8" max
7) Never deviate form the first 6 rules. :thumb:
1) No DSB in DT...make a (remote deep sand bed), RDSB instead.
2) Sugar sized sand. The grain size and texture of the old South Down play sand is best.
3) NO sand sifters except the worms and pods that move into it.
4) DON'T touch it EVER. Let the critters that live in it pull the stuff down and eat it.
5) Compartmentalize it. Make 12 compartments so IF, after 5-15 years you decide you want to,(which you should not have to), change it, you can change out one compartment per month over a years time.
6) Depth of RDSB should be 6-8" max
7) Never deviate form the first 6 rules. :thumb:
Streetcred
Active Member
1) Not exactly. DSB in the DT is perfectly acceptable. A DSB and a RDSB are not the same thing. A DSB will reduce nitrate and act as a home for detritus eating critters ... a RDSB is only for nitrate reduction.
2) Yes.
3) It depends on the "sand sifters" ... some species of snail are a complimentary addition.
4) Periodic maintenance of the surface layer is ... just keep out of the depths of the SB. Many successful reefers occasionally stir up their SB to release 'food' for sps.
5) This is specifically for DSB in a refugium ...
6) RDSB depth like a DSB is dependent on grain size ... for a RDSB the grain should be as fine as is practicable and the water run across its surface fast enough so not to raise grains into suspension.
7) Be skeptical ! :wink:
Streetcred
Active Member
Edit: "6) [ ... ] raise grains into suspension or allow detritus to settle."
s2minute
Community Member
Sorry Streetcred but:
1: while acceptable, you're exposing it to light which gives unwanted algae a chance to take hold and NO a RDSB is NOT only for nitrate reduction. I have a multi-tank system and my RBSB is located in the Cryptic zone tank which is a standard 150, receives none to ambient room light, has tons of pods and worms beneath which are it's only sand sifters and no detritus remains on that surface as it is all pulled down by those same critters and eaten. I've had this RDSB up and running since 2008.
2: Of course
3: See #1
4: See #1 and "stirring" the sand is acceptable if you have sand in the DT and it's only shallow in depth.
5: Having a DSB in your DT only sets you up for problems because you end up messing with it or your fish and critters will depending on what you keep.
6: agreed
7: Be as properly informed as possible.
8: Concerning the compartmentalization. The compartments do not extend all the way up to the surface. Their is still an inch of Southdown sand over the top. The compartment walls are permeable.
9: I've had this RDSB, which has very low current running through the cryptic zone tank, since 2008 and has been virtually undisturbed. The pods move along the RDSB surface, make tunnels beneath as well as tons of worms that live as far down as 3-4".
If you want to have the most success with the least headaches and if you have the room, I've done it this way with great success because i know i've done it correctly and for the right reasons. I'm not saying there is no other way but, you must understand that there is certain things you must do and must NOT do for it to function the way it should. Also, remember, there is no ONE person who knows it all exclusively. I base my findings on trial and error and years of hands on exp of 20+years plus i do read
. This is what WORKS for me :wink:
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Streetcred
Active Member
Thank you for your response 's2minute'.
I'll establish my credentials as an amatuer marine aquarist and describe my display: I've been doing saltwater on and off for +30 years (current sustained run of 18 years) and am influenced largely by the works of Calfo, Fenner, and Shimek in respect of sustainability, natural systems, and sand beds. My current display is 500 gal sps dominated 'natural system' that celebrated its 8th anniversary a couple of months back. In that time it has taken out a number of display awards. It has an in-display DSB that gradually migrates around with the random currents and the fauna moves with it. The 2.5' deep 70 gal weir contains the 'cryptic zone' ... a deep v.low light compartment that is a home to filter feeders and critters ... no SB as this is also the primary area to settle out detritus from the display before the sump which contains a refugium and then another separate nitrate reduction specific DSB with no fauna to trap detritus. This DSB sits in a container which is capable of being lifted out of the sump and is shielded from the sump lighting.
My definition of a "remote" sand bed may differ from yours in that I see this being used for the single function of nitrate reduction in a remote container capable of being disconnected from the system ... no light and no fauna. I don't classify a sand bed in a refugium as a remote deep sand bed for nitrate management ... it is more likely to become a source of future nitrate problems.
Regarding your clarification of the "compartmentalisation", I believe that you contradict your earlier claim that it is required to aid gradual replacement. As you now describe it, its only function is to hold part of the SB in place ... a permeable barrier does not function, as you describe it, for easy removal. The recommended method in this case would be to place the sand bed in containers that can be readily lifted out and replaced without releasing any toxicity into the water.
I can recommend Calfo's (and Shimek's) works in respect of DSB's and RDSB's ... for refugiums and natural nitrate control.
HTH.
I'll establish my credentials as an amatuer marine aquarist and describe my display: I've been doing saltwater on and off for +30 years (current sustained run of 18 years) and am influenced largely by the works of Calfo, Fenner, and Shimek in respect of sustainability, natural systems, and sand beds. My current display is 500 gal sps dominated 'natural system' that celebrated its 8th anniversary a couple of months back. In that time it has taken out a number of display awards. It has an in-display DSB that gradually migrates around with the random currents and the fauna moves with it. The 2.5' deep 70 gal weir contains the 'cryptic zone' ... a deep v.low light compartment that is a home to filter feeders and critters ... no SB as this is also the primary area to settle out detritus from the display before the sump which contains a refugium and then another separate nitrate reduction specific DSB with no fauna to trap detritus. This DSB sits in a container which is capable of being lifted out of the sump and is shielded from the sump lighting.
My definition of a "remote" sand bed may differ from yours in that I see this being used for the single function of nitrate reduction in a remote container capable of being disconnected from the system ... no light and no fauna. I don't classify a sand bed in a refugium as a remote deep sand bed for nitrate management ... it is more likely to become a source of future nitrate problems.
Regarding your clarification of the "compartmentalisation", I believe that you contradict your earlier claim that it is required to aid gradual replacement. As you now describe it, its only function is to hold part of the SB in place ... a permeable barrier does not function, as you describe it, for easy removal. The recommended method in this case would be to place the sand bed in containers that can be readily lifted out and replaced without releasing any toxicity into the water.
I can recommend Calfo's (and Shimek's) works in respect of DSB's and RDSB's ... for refugiums and natural nitrate control.
HTH.
s2minute
Community Member
OK, In that respect: I'll establish my credentials as an amatuer marine aquarist and describe my display: My current sustained run is also a min of 18+ years. I am influenced largely by the works of Shimek, Tyree and many others. I currently run a 400+ gal multi-tank system based on a modified Environmental Gradient System and incorporated the works of Shimek work on sand beds. I don't contradict myself. I built in a method of replacement if ever the need arises and by syphoning the compartments it is easily accomplished. The DSB is not in or classified as a refugium. It's the cryptic and semi-cryptic zone tank. I have a refugium with cheato as well. I know what i am doing thank you. It works perfectly for me and my sps/lps are thriving. I'm sure you enjoy your success as well but, to "establish credentials" via past exp, membership dates and/or thread counts on a forum, etc , in an attempt to trump another hobbyist is completely counter productive and something i highly resent. There is no expert in this field and there never will be so if you want to engage a person in some constructive conversation w/o the ,i have more exp and qualifications than you thing and attitude , than i welcome it. Other than that, this conversation is ended.
Best regards
Anthony
Best regards
Anthony
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Streetcred
Active Member
It is your prerogative, Anthony, to do as you please, but please don't appeal to the authority of your experience, etc., ...
"I base my findings on trial and error and years of hands on exp of 20+years plus i do read .... ", and then take your bat and ball and go home when you don't get a fanboy response to your "never deviate from" six point plan as though your word is final.
So, I'll remind you, ... "There is no expert in this field and there never will be so if you want to engage a person in some constructive conversation w/o the ,i have more exp and qualifications than you thing and attitude , than [sic] i welcome it. Other than that, this conversation is ended."
Other than that, my apologies to the forum for invoking your strong reaction.
"I base my findings on trial and error and years of hands on exp of 20+years plus i do read .... ", and then take your bat and ball and go home when you don't get a fanboy response to your "never deviate from" six point plan as though your word is final.
So, I'll remind you, ... "There is no expert in this field and there never will be so if you want to engage a person in some constructive conversation w/o the ,i have more exp and qualifications than you thing and attitude , than [sic] i welcome it. Other than that, this conversation is ended."
Other than that, my apologies to the forum for invoking your strong reaction.
s2minute
Community Member
DSB questions
"don't appeal to the authority of your experience, etc."....that was a direct response to your ," authority of your experience"...i was merely giving you a taste of your own medicine so to speak. ...and So, I'll remind you yet again, " "There is no expert in this field and there never will be so if you want to engage a person in some constructive conversation. i welcome it. Other than that, this conversation is ended." Your apologie is accepted.:yo:
"don't appeal to the authority of your experience, etc."....that was a direct response to your ," authority of your experience"...i was merely giving you a taste of your own medicine so to speak. ...and So, I'll remind you yet again, " "There is no expert in this field and there never will be so if you want to engage a person in some constructive conversation. i welcome it. Other than that, this conversation is ended." Your apologie is accepted.:yo:
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