Quarantined Blue Tang with Ich

Thraciandrummer · Apr 30, 2015

What's up guys. So about two weeks ago I picked up a Yellow Tang and a Blue Tang to add to my tank. This is my first saltwater system and these are my first tangs. Both fish were acclimated to my 20 gallon quarantine setup that I have. Just an overview of the setup (it's pretty simple)...

20 gallon tank
1 Penguin 200 with bio-wheel hang on back filter with filter floss (no carbon insert)
1 powerhead
2 PVC elbows
Orbit Marine LED light I had laying around
Seachem Ammonia Alert badge
heater
thermometer

For the first week in the QT the blue tang did a good bit of hiding behind one of the PVC pipes, but he always came out to eat (and devoured food) and would swim around when the lights were on. Regardless of good eating and swimming I started to notice white spots on him. Once I saw this I dosed Copper Power at 2.5PPM as suggested by the bottle and used an API test kit to test every other day to make sure the copper level was staying at 2.5PPM. Also noticed slightly elevated Ammonia levels and high nitrite and nitrates, so I did a 50% water change added prime after that to bind up any remaining ammonia and re dosed copper power to keep copper levels at 2.5PPM. It has been a week since I started noticing the Ich on the blue tang and it seems to just be getting worse. The spots look like little white fuzzy pimples on it. The yellow tang on the other hand looks great and has no signs of anything on him what so ever. I am wondering if anyone can give me some advise on how to clear the blue tang of this so I can get them into my display tank.

Details on the display tank...
125 Gallon 6ft long tank with 20 gallon sump (including refugium with 10 pounds miracle mud and Chaeto)
120 pounds of live rock and 120 pounds of live sand
Current Inhabitants -
2 Black Clowns
1 FoxFace Lo
2 FireFish
3 Blue Reef Chromis
1 Royal DottyBack
241 member cleanup crew
1 Fighting Conch
1 Coral Banded Shrimp

Humblefish · Apr 30, 2015

Can you post a pic of the Blue Tang and these "little white fuzzy pimples"? Cuz "fuzzy" doesn't sound like ich to me.

Also, I admit I'm not familiar with "Copper Power", but typically mixing any form of copper with ammonia reducer = dead fish. Might wanna be careful with that.

Thraciandrummer · Apr 30, 2015

I can try to get a picture tonight, but taking a picture of the fish isn't always easy. I was unaware that Prime and Copper can react bad with each other. None of the instructions on either warned against using along with the other. I would think since Copper medication and the use of ammonia reducers are so common a warning would be placed on at least one of them to not use along with the other. Neither has died obviously but I can always do another water change.

I am having trouble getting my levels in the QT to be good. I originally used water from my Display, which has perfect water conditions, in the QT. I also was seeding some sponges and the biowheel in my sump for weeks before I even setup the QT. All of the sponges and the bio wheel are in the QT now, so I can't figure out why water from the Display and all that seeded material is showing ammonia and nitrites so high. I guess I'll just have to keep up with water changes until I can add these guys to the display. Even if this is no Ich, doesn't copper medication work on most common fish diseases?

Humblefish · Apr 30, 2015

Copper only treats two external parasites that we know of: ich & velvet. The jury is still out on whether or not it successfully treats Uronema marinum. Copper does appear to suppress symptoms of Brooklynella for awhile, but formalin/formaldehyde is usually needed for 100% eradication. "Fuzzy" white spots sounds more like Lymphocystis (harmless virus) or possibly a bacterial infection (antibiotics would be needed). Are the spots on the body or mostly on the fins/spines?

Also, the presence of copper renders most powder/liquid test kits useless. You have to use a Seachem ammonia alert badge to keep tabs on ammonia. Ammonia is all you need to worry about in QT and it must remain 0 at all times. Unless administering hyposalinity; in which case pH must also be closely monitored. Fish are unaffected by parameters such as nitrites, nitrates, phosphates, etc. Worry about elevated nitrates & phosphates in your reef.

Thraciandrummer · Apr 30, 2015

They are definitely fuzzy white spots and 99% of them are on the body of the fish, not the fins.

Thraciandrummer · Apr 30, 2015

Also i have an ammonia alert badge from Seachem on there right now and it says the ammonia level is fine in the QT.

Humblefish · Apr 30, 2015

Thraciandrummer said:
They are definitely fuzzy white spots and 99% of them are on the body of the fish, not the fins.

Sounds like a bacterial infection. How large are the spots? I know it's difficult sometimes but try to get a pic if you can.

Thraciandrummer · Apr 30, 2015

They are about the size of a course grain of sea salt right now. I will absolutely try tonight to get a picture.

Humblefish · Apr 30, 2015

Thraciandrummer said:
They are about the size of a course grain of sea salt right now. I will absolutely try tonight to get a picture.

Hmm. Now that sounds more like ich (or velvet). How long have they been on the fish?

Thraciandrummer · Apr 30, 2015

Been on the fish for about a week. The Yellow Tang in Quarantine with the Blue has no sign of these spots at all. The fish swims well when the lights are on, but does frequently hide. He eats like a pig, but he is also scratching on things in the tank. I thought it was Ich, but if that's the case why is Copper not fixing it? It's just getting worse. Also, if it's Ich, why doesn't the Yellow also have it (Maybe it hasn't fallen off the Blue yet to reproduce and look for new fish hosts)? I am not familiar with Velvet, so I would have to research how to diagnose it.

Humblefish · Apr 30, 2015

Thraciandrummer said:
Been on the fish for about a week. The Yellow Tang in Quarantine with the Blue has no sign of these spots at all. The fish swims well when the lights are on, but does frequently hide. He eats like a pig, but he is also scratching on things in the tank. I thought it was Ich, but if that's the case why is Copper not fixing it? It's just getting worse. Also, if it's Ich, why doesn't the Yellow also have it (Maybe it hasn't fallen off the Blue yet to reproduce and look for new fish hosts)? I am not familiar with Velvet, so I would have to research how to diagnose it.

Velvet would have killed the fish by now (after a week of showing symptoms.) Ich trophonts typically spend 3-7 days feeding on a fish, before dropping off. So, if the white spots are not gone soon it cannot be ich. However, it's important that we are talking about the exact same white spots still being there after 7 days. If old ones are leaving and new ones appearing, then that could be ich.

Thraciandrummer · Apr 30, 2015

Ok, I will have to take note of where they are on his body then. I haven't noticed less spots, but rather I've noticed more. From my understanding if it is in fact Ich, once the trophonts fall off the fish they should succumb to the copper treatment in the water. This should kill them off and given that the fish's immune system is good and it is eating well and stress-free, hopefully he will not get it again after that. I would assume it's a good idea to do a water change if I notice the spots fall off the fish and try to vacuum the bottom of the tank to get some of the Ich out once it falls off. If you guys have any other valuable bits of info, I'll take it. I really want to get him cleared up and into the display tank already.

Humblefish · Apr 30, 2015

Thraciandrummer said:
Ok, I will have to take note of where they are on his body then. I haven't noticed less spots, but rather I've noticed more. From my understanding if it is in fact Ich, once the trophonts fall off the fish they should succumb to the copper treatment in the water. This should kill them off and given that the fish's immune system is good and it is eating well and stress-free, hopefully he will not get it again after that. I would assume it's a good idea to do a water change if I notice the spots fall off the fish and try to vacuum the bottom of the tank to get some of the Ich out once it falls off. If you guys have any other valuable bits of info, I'll take it. I really want to get him cleared up and into the display tank already.

There is some evidence that hypo & chemical treatments (such as copper) may be able to successfully target ich after it leaves the fish (protomont stage). However, it is more established that theronts (free swimming stage) are most susceptible to these treatments. Unfortunately, theronts may not be released for 2-4 weeks after tomont formation. In very rare cases, it can actually take up to 72 days dependent upon the strain.

Thraciandrummer · Apr 30, 2015

So what's my best course of action to rid a fish of Ich in quarantine? At this point the Yellow Tang is free of anything and looks really healthy. I know it probably wouldn't be smart to put him in the display tank now as he's most likely already been exposed, but wouldn't it be better to get him out of the QT and into the DT while he is healthy then to leave him in there and hope he doesn't catch it from the Blue?

Humblefish · Apr 30, 2015

Thraciandrummer said:
So what's my best course of action to rid a fish of Ich in quarantine? At this point the Yellow Tang is free of anything and looks really healthy. I know it probably wouldn't be smart to put him in the display tank now as he's most likely already been exposed, but wouldn't it be better to get him out of the QT and into the DT while he is healthy then to leave him in there and hope he doesn't catch it from the Blue?

It would be unwise to move the YT until the BT has been "cured" of whatever is ailing him. Most pathogens are "water borne" and these fish have shared water. I am unfamiliar with "Copper Power" and it's effectiveness. I'm not saying it doesn't work; just that I personally would be more comfortable using a more "mainstream" copper product such as Cupramine or Coppersafe.

Snap some pics tonight and we'll go from there. First, we need to confirm this is, in fact, ich you are dealing with.

Thraciandrummer · Apr 30, 2015

You got it. I will do my best to take pics of this little guy. He's a quick and kinda skittish little *******.

Thraciandrummer · Apr 30, 2015

These are the best pictures I could get of this fish's disease.

Humblefish · Apr 30, 2015

Based primarily on what I see in the first pic, that is ich. But I would give your Copper Power a few more days before declaring it didn't work. It can take up to 7 days for all the trophonts to fall off.