Quarantined Blue Tang with Ich

[4FordFamily]

So here's an update. Haven't yet done the freshwater dip due to just a lack of time. I have done a lot of reading about people having success with Ginger, so I figured before I stress the fish out even more by dipping it in freshwater I might as well take a stab at trying ginger. I took 4 cubes of frozen food, defrosted them , added 1/4 tsp of ginger, a little water to make it a liquid mixture and then refroze into cubes. I have now fed this ginger concoction to the fish for the last three days. After the first feeding I noticed all the white spots on the yellow tang are gone and have not returned. The Blue lost some of the white spots, but still has some. He is massively happier though. He is a nice bold blue color and he is swimming around the tank like a mad man. He is no longer scratches on things and he seems like a way happier fish. I think I am going to continue feeding ginger indefinitely because it seems to absolutely help mood and immune system of the fish. I am beginning to think that maybe this isn't Ich since it's been a full three weeks that these spots have been on the fish and they have not fell off. I know that after 3-5 days of the ich parasite being on a fish it is supposed to fall off and then multiply and find a new fish host, but at no point have I really seen anything fall off of the Blue tang until I started feeding ginger. If after this week the Ginger hasn't gotten rid of all the white spots then I will freshwater dip and continue with copper and ginger, but right now he seems much much better.

Just my .02... Ginger is more of a snake oil. It may MAY (I don't have the research on the topic to refute) aid them in coping with ich, but what is really going on is that your fish are building an immunity to the parasite. Which, I suppose is fine to some degree, but if you EVER plan on adding any fragile species in your tank, you will want to treat them in copper (I prefer cupramine @.5-.6 ppm) for 4-5 weeks, or utilize the TTM. Hypo doesn't work on several parasites and is difficult to administer properly for many. Even though I have kept both of these tangs you have in systems with ich for 10+ years, new additions can still succomb to ich, even if they are not fragile. Any fish can be affected. As soon as you put those fish in your display tank (without having completed copper or TTM method properly), your display tank will have ich. Your fish may never show signs, but ALL new additions will be also infected. Some may survive also, some may perish. My hippo tang got ich any time I did anything stressful, and it would go away after a few days to a week. I had her for 5 years before velvet killed her. I am now a proponent of PROPER quarantine procedures in which every fish undergoes TTM, cupramine, or potentially CP (although I have zero experience with it and am reading less than stellar reviews recently).

So understand that while these two may be tough and make it for now, there's really almost no point in utilizing a QT in the future because your display tank will have ich. Ginger does not cure ich, I am completely certain.

I might also add that if you ever plan to add any acantharus tang (Powder blue, powder brown, white cheek/goldrim, achilles, clown, sohal, atlantic blue tang, hybrid PBT, or really anything other than zebrasoma or hippo tangs) you will kill 95% of them in an ich-infested system as they struggle particularly hard with even mild strains of ich.

I have successfully kept achilles tangs in ich-infested systems for up to one year, but they always succomb when something goes out of wack and the parasite takes over. Same with powder blues. This is POOR husbandry. I did keep an Atlantic Blue Tang in a system with ich for a couple years as well, with the same result. Those instances above are HARDLY considered successes. These fish should live 10 years or more in your tank.

 

[Thraciandrummer]

There currently is Copper Power in their QT which has done absolutely nothing. I have Cupramine but the carbon cartridge I put in the water over a week ago has done little to remove the Copper Power. I also did a 75% water change to aid in the removal of the Copper Power but I still show 1PPM of copper power in the water. This is what is preventing me from getting the Cupramine in the water, as I do not want to over dose the water with Copper. From my understanding, a fish can develop Ich from being stressed. regardless if they've been "cured" with copper or not. Meaning I can cure with copper and have the blue tang show no signs of ich, put him in the display, and the move alone could stress him out enough to have the ich breakout occur again. From what I understand there isn't a cure for ich, the best cure is keeping their immune systems in good health, keeping a stress free environment, and keeping good water parameters. I like what I've read about ginger because it keeps their immune systems in great shape which could help them fight off ich when stressed. For now it's worth a shot for me as copper, frequent water changes and twice a day feedings have not gotten rid of ich on the blue tang at all. So far the ginger is the only thing that has him showing signs of improvement. Probably because it's an immune booster (just as it is in humans).

 

[Humblefish]

Here's the thing about ginger and all the other unproven treatments for ich ... If those who come up with these theories are so confident in them, why won't they take the time to conduct experimentation, document/photograph everything, etc.? Fish with ich are not that hard to find (just walk into any Petco.) We know proven treatments such as copper, hyposalinity, tank transfer, etc. work on ich only because scientific research was done, fish were used as test subjects and everything was documented. Experimentation using CP is currently ongoing, including some being done by yours truly.

You don't have to have a PhD or be a scientist to conduct an experiment. Anyone can do it, so long as you document everything. Students at university probably conduct more experiments than anyone. My mind is very open to new treatment options... but I need to see some substance to it, and not just hype.

 

[4FordFamily]

There currently is Copper Power in their QT which has done absolutely nothing. I have Cupramine but the carbon cartridge I put in the water over a week ago has done little to remove the Copper Power. I also did a 75% water change to aid in the removal of the Copper Power but I still show 1PPM of copper power in the water. This is what is preventing me from getting the Cupramine in the water, as I do not want to over dose the water with Copper. From my understanding, a fish can develop Ich from being stressed. regardless if they've been "cured" with copper or not. Meaning I can cure with copper and have the blue tang show no signs of ich, put him in the display, and the move alone could stress him out enough to have the ich breakout occur again. From what I understand there isn't a cure for ich, the best cure is keeping their immune systems in good health, keeping a stress free environment, and keeping good water parameters. I like what I've read about ginger because it keeps their immune systems in great shape which could help them fight off ich when stressed. For now it's worth a shot for me as copper, frequent water changes and twice a day feedings have not gotten rid of ich on the blue tang at all. So far the ginger is the only thing that has him showing signs of improvement. Probably because it's an immune booster (just as it is in humans).

Use cuprasorb and fresh carbon. Cuprasorb removes all copper in 10 days in my experience. I usually replace cuprisorb and carbon again even after tests read "0" just in case more leaching occurs.

I've turned copper tanks in to full reef tanks 10-12 days after full therapeutic doses of copper. I have used coppersafe and cupramine, and done this with both.

 

[Thraciandrummer]

Ok I will try cuprisorb. As of right now ginger is definitely having some effect. A good bit of the ich parasites have dropped off and the fish's mood has improved 100% I am not trying come one here and say ginger is a new magical treatment nor am I looking to do any kind of experimentation. I am just looking for what will get this fish better so I can get it in my display. If ginger is able to get this fish healthy and he goes a month without any ich on him in QT after ginger treatment then that's good enough for me. I understand that keeping a tangs always comes with the risk of ich getting into your display. I know I have stable water parameters, I have set this tank up specifically to not be stressful to the tangs as they'll be the last and biggest fish in the tank, and I will make sure to feed them immune boosting foods.

 

[4FordFamily]

Just because the fish doesn't show visible signs of ich, does not mean it is not a carrier. In fact, I would bet the farm that it does carry ich as all of my tangs over the years that showed no symptoms were.

 

[Thraciandrummer]

I am sure that the blue tang is a carrier of it since it had it for three weeks straight. But does that mean I should never put it into my display tank? Here is an update from when I returned home today. Three feedings of ginger have taken all but 2 it spots of of the blue tang. The Yellow has been clear since the first feeding with ginger. At this point I will wait until all visible signs of it are gone from both fish, do another large water change, continue feeding with ginger since it's clearly working and virtually costless. If the tangs both go a month in QT without it from the ginger I would say that is a good enough indication the ginger worked. I am not claiming this to be an inch cure, nor am I suggesting that it is the best thing to treat it, but it worked. That's a pretty good science experiment to me. I had two tangs with ich for three weeks straight. I treated with copper with no results, but after 3 feedings with ginger the ich is all gone except for one or two spots. I have no problem continuing to feed all my fish in my display with ginger, in fact I will probably do it since it has made the tangs swim better and have better coloration.

 

[4FordFamily]

It means that if you don't treat him with proper ttm or copper for 4-5 weeks, he will infect your dt with ich

 

[Humblefish]

It means that if you don't treat him with proper ttm or copper for 4-5 weeks, he will infect your dt with ich

+1 You will need to use ginger in your DT indefinitely to help him and all of his (fish) tankmates manage their symptoms of ich. This is assuming, of course, that ginger even helps with ich.

After about a year enough ginger will have built up in your tank that you can next add cinnamon to bake some cookies (sorry, I couldn't resist.) Seriously though, I have no idea what long term ginger use does to corals, inverts, or your water chemistry, etc. Something to think about.

 

[4FordFamily]

+1 You will need to use ginger in your DT indefinitely to help him and all of his (fish) tankmates manage their symptoms of ich. This is assuming, of course, that ginger even helps with ich.

After about a year enough ginger will have built up in your tank that you can next add cinnamon to bake some cookies (sorry, I couldn't resist.) Seriously though, I have no idea what long term ginger use does to corals, inverts, or your water chemistry, etc. Something to think about.

Will need some baking soda and sugar. If he starts carbon dosing sugar he will be half way there!

 

[Thraciandrummer]

All a bit unnecessary...I came for advice not to be told using ginger will allow me to make cookies in my tank. I have read absolutely nothing bad about using ginger. Everything I've read have been people like me who tried it and saw quick and healthy results. In fact I read a few threads of people who did updates even after dosing ginger was complete stating that the ich never returned. I will take everyone's advise and when the ginger does the job of removing the ich I will dose cupramineto "cure" them, but the bottom line is any fish, even fish already in my display can get ich. It's compared to the common cold in humans, no matter what even if everyone at your office starTs off healthy someone will eventually get a weaker immune system and get a cold. But, just as in humans, we eat and drink things to boost our immune system which fights the cold. Ich has no cure it just has treatments. I can "cure" a fish with ich with copper but that fish can get it again, just like I can treat with ginger and have the fish get better but he could get it again. Or that tang could never again get it and another fish in my display that never had it could get it. If ginger works to treat it then what's the difference.

 

[4FordFamily]

From someone that has lived ich management for ten years, and read what I wanted to believe, I am telling you that for many species this is not the case.i ca definitively tell you that ginger will not cure your tank of ich, at best it will help manage it. IMO you could feed fish paprika and fairy dust and many species will adapt and build up a resistance to it and appear all better. Months and years later whatever when you add new fish that are unable to attain this status they will die because although your fish show no symptoms, the parasite remains in much fewer numbers. Where an ill fish will have thousands on them, yourfish will have a few hiding in the gills out of view. A new fish will take anywhere from a week to a few months to die of ich in the end because the low populations of ich in your display tank will slowly weaken fish that are unable to build resistance to it, and you'll slowly see only that new fish (most likely) become more and more coated with spots (as they take advantage ofthe weak host and repopulate exponentially) until they suck the nourishment from the fish (slowly their spine will show) no matter how much it eats,until it doesn't eat because it's gills are so damaged that it can no longer breathe and it will stop eating and die. Sometimes the other fish will get ich again but most of the time as long as you have good water parameters they'll probably survive it again.

I speak from experience. I assure you certain species can not handle the parasite in a closed environment (unlike the ocean) and wlll die. Easy species may also survive depending on the individual and your husbandry skills. In the long run you will kill many fish slowly and chalk it up to them being unhealthy specimens to begin with. How much of that is true we may never know. But you'll need only the toughest fish most adaptable individuals for it to work (as I did for years until I started keeping Acantharus tangs. I ashamed to admit I've killed probably 20 over the years believing they would be able to manage ich as my other inhabitants did. Wrong.

Sorry if the humor offended you but on our end its irritating to no end when people search for agreeable posts and ignore the other 95% that say the contrary. Why do these people even ask? That's how I handle the frustration,jests.

I've been down your road and my wrasse tank manages ich well and has for years. There is a happy blonde naso in there also. My angel and tang tanks were the site of many fish deaths until my hard head came around. I am not one of the many that says ich can't be managed, it can (with more fish deaths) and I've done it. I'm saying many fish and species cannot and I feel terrible about those I killed due to the same practices you describe.

Again, it could be any placebo (ginger, garlic,etc) but in reality your fish built up their own resistance. It had nothing to do with ginger, it was just a function of time and frequent feedings to boost immune support. Make no mistake about it- if you do not properly administer ttm or treat with copper, your display tank will have ich in low populations lurking and waiting for all but the hardiest fish.

 

[Thraciandrummer]

But your missing what I'm saying. The ginger was the only thing that got rid of the ich. Copper was NOT working. I used the ginger to rid the fish of the ich it had, which the copper wasn't doing. Once the ich is gone which as this rate will be tomorrow I will use cupramine, which everyone here has suggested and I bought upon everyone's suggestion, to "cure" the fish of ich. Even though everything I've read has said there is no cure and it can easily be brought on by stress especially in tangs, I will use the cupramine once the ich is gone and leave them in the QT tank for another month to ,and sure it's not returning. What is the problem here?

 

[4FordFamily]

But your missing what I'm saying. The ginger was the only thing that got rid of the ich. Copper was NOT working. I used the ginger to rid the fish of the ich it had, which the copper wasn't doing. Once the ich is gone which as this rate will be tomorrow I will use cupramine, which everyone here has suggested and I bought upon everyone's suggestion, to "cure" the fish of ich. Even though everything I've read has said there is no cure and it can easily be brought on by stress especially in tangs, I will use the cupramine once the ich is gone and leave them in the QT tank for another month to ,and sure it's not returning. What is the problem here?

If cooper didn't kill it,

1) your test kit was not giving you accurate readings. Api is notorious for this.
2) as a result you didn't have enough in the water column. It can take a week for noticeable spots to disappear from fish.
3) it isn't ich

Also, I do understand. Ginger didn't do anything. Did you read what I explained? The fish built an immunity over time and eating well aids this. The ginger was at best as effective as garlic at "curing" ich. Which is that it stimulates more feeding which improves health and immune system. It does little to nothing directly to combat ich. Had you fed paprika instead, the same result would have happened. Time and feeding allowed your fish to develop a pseudo "immunity", that is not a true immunity, they just can keep 99% of the individual parasites at bay. The other .1% will recolonize at any chance they can if you do not do what you describe above.

I am always one to help, but if I feel like you don't really want help, then that's a different situation. I am trying to prevent you from taking the same path I ran.

 

[Humblefish]

I apologize if my ginger/cinnamon/cookie comment was out of line. I was just having a little fun. No offense intended.

I am actually interested in experimenting with ginger (and other unprovens such as Herbtana) as a possible treatment option for ich. I just don't have the resources right now to do more than I am currently working on (CP experiments).

What you need to understand is the white spots you see on the fish are not the actual parasite, as all stages of ich are invisible to the naked eye. They are actually “exit wounds” from the trophonts (feeding stage); they look white because excess mucous builds up around the tiny “bite marks” inflicted by trophonts. A fish carrying trophonts doesn’t always have visible symptoms, as the gills are easier to penetrate, and those trophonts will be out of sight. These trophonts typically spend 3-7 days feeding on a fish, before dropping off. Copper, hypo, CP are not capable of eradicating trophonts; so they remain on the fish for 3-7 days regardless of whether you are performing treatment or not. In short, they always go away no matter what you do (or don't do).

Once a trophont drops off, it becomes a protomont. The protomont crawls around for 2-18 hours, looking for a surface to encyst upon. Once it finds this, it sticks to the surface, and begins the encysting process. The parasite is now called a tomont. It takes about 8-12 hours for the cyst to harden around the tomont. After this, the tomont goes into “reproductive mode” producing numerous daughter tomites. These tomites are then released into the water column as theronts. The now “free swimming” theronts seek out fish to feed on, thereby becoming trophonts, and the cycle starts all over again. However, it's this theront stage which is vulnerable to chemical treatments (copper, CP) and hyposalinity. Eliminate free swimming theronts is the only way to interrupt ich's life cycle, and eradicate the parasite once and for all.

 

[Thraciandrummer]

I am listening and taking note of everything you're saying. I started with an API test kit but changed to a seachem copper test kit instead which gave the exact same reading. The fish also was eating like a pig even before the ginger so it wasn't a matter of eating well that changed. I have been feeding the same exact food and he's been eating the same amount. Frozen mysis shrimp, Thera-a pellets and nori. The only difference is once I added ginger spots went away. I do want help and I am listening. Once again I am not claiming ginger as a cure, all I am saying is it is the only thing that cleared the fish, and that now I will dose cupramine and if I see no signs of ich for a month, it is gone. No matter how you slice it the only thing that worked is ginger because nothing else changed. I didn't dose ginger and also do something else. If I didn't start feeding ginger this fish would still be covered in ich because it was like that for three weeks. And if you go back and thread my posts I clearly state the fish was swimming and eating like a pig even with the ich. This wasn't an overtime built up immunity it was a nearly instant result of the ginger. Again not saying it cured it but there was no other change than ginger and there was a result. That's as good a science experiment as any since two fish had it and it immediately went away with ginger.

 

[Thraciandrummer]

I apologize if my ginger/cinnamon/cookie comment was out of line. I was just having a little fun. No offense intended.

I am actually interested in experimenting with ginger (and other unprovens such as Herbtana) as a possible treatment option for ich. I just don't have the resources right now to do more than I am currently working on (CP experiments).

What you need to understand is the white spots you see on the fish are not the actual parasite, as all stages of ich are invisible to the naked eye. They are actually “exit wounds” from the trophonts (feeding stage); they look white because excess mucous builds up around the tiny “bite marks” inflicted by trophonts. A fish carrying trophonts doesn’t always have visible symptoms, as the gills are easier to penetrate, and those trophonts will be out of sight. These trophonts typically spend 3-7 days feeding on a fish, before dropping off. Copper, hypo, CP are not capable of eradicating trophonts; so they remain on the fish for 3-7 days regardless of whether you are performing treatment or not. In short, they always go away no matter what you do (or don't do).

Once a trophont drops off, it becomes a protomont. The protomont crawls around for 2-18 hours, looking for a surface to encyst upon. Once it finds this, it sticks to the surface, and begins the encysting process. The parasite is now called a tomont. It takes about 8-12 hours for the cyst to harden around the tomont. After this, the tomont goes into “reproductive mode” producing numerous daughter tomites. These tomites are then released into the water column as theronts. The now “free swimming” theronts seek out fish to feed on, thereby becoming trophonts, and the cycle starts all over again. However, it's this theront stage which is vulnerable to chemical treatments (copper, CP) and hyposalinity. Eliminate free swimming theronts is the only way to interrupt ich's life cycle, and eradicate the parasite once and for all.

Humble fish I appreciate your responses because you've been helpful since this started. I understand the life cycle of ich and I understand when it is susceptible to copper, but what I have found here is that the ginger helped the fish's immune system to quickly rid it of what it had. I understand there is still ich in the water and that without copper these fish will most likely get it again or infect my display, which is why once all spots are visibly gone from the water, cupramine will be dosed and the fish will be monitored for another month in QT. I think if anyone is sceptical about ginger they should try it. I read a lot about it, I was sceptical but I tried it and it worked. If ich returns then I won't believe it in. I have tried to look for, in my research, any kind of negative articles about ginger and I found none. I found a ton about people who've never tried it that immediately dismissed it but I found the rest to be people who actually tried it, rid their fish of ich with it, and watched it never return for periods of years. These people even stopped using ginger after the spots fell off the fish. I am not claiming anything, but try it before everyone gets all negative about it.

 

[4FordFamily]

Again - time is what made the spots go away - not the ginger. It's a coincidence.

Regular feeding would have "yielded" the same results.

I've read through the threads about it - anecdotal at best. There is no real evidence or any research or experiments, no scientific or explanation of the logic of how it would work or anything - all anecdotal claims that are the same as yours - the fish built a resistance all on their own and ginger is credited.

 

[4FordFamily]

Humble fish I appreciate your responses because you've been helpful since this started. I understand the life cycle of ich and I understand when it is susceptible to copper, but what I have found here is that the ginger helped the fish's immune system to quickly rid it of what it had. I understand there is still ich in the water and that without copper these fish will most likely get it again or infect my display, which is why once all spots are visibly gone from the water, cupramine will be dosed and the fish will be monitored for another month in QT. I think if anyone is sceptical about ginger they should try it. I read a lot about it, I was sceptical but I tried it and it worked. If ich returns then I won't believe it in. I have tried to look for, in my research, any kind of negative articles about ginger and I found none. I found a ton about people who've never tried it that immediately dismissed it but I found the rest to be people who actually tried it, rid their fish of ich with it, and watched it never return for periods of years. These people even stopped using ginger after the spots fell off the fish. I am not claiming anything, but try it before everyone gets all negative about it.

You are going down the right path! Your fish and display all thank you!

Your fish probably won't get it again because their working immunity takes a long time to go away (and exposure to ich strains needs to be basically zero for quite some time)

good luck and keep us posted! Humblefish is excellent!

 

[Humblefish]

I have tried to look for, in my research, any kind of negative articles about ginger and I found none.

It's been awhile since I've looked thru it, but I believe there were some "ginger failure" anecdotal accounts in this thread: Ginger works with ich... Every time I use it - Reef Central Online Community

Either way, it's worth reading if you haven't already. However, it does get ugly near the end. :wink: