Growouts, the Pyramid scheme of Reefing?

**brahm** · 05-01-2012, 08:13 PM

Is it just me or does it seem like grow outs are the pyramid scheme of reefing. I'm not talking about any one in particular but I casually browse the group buy forum and I see a lot of grow outs. I've been tempted to get it on one or to, but it just seems like a large percent of them end up with the grower going MIA, the corals Dying, or some other debacle. In the end the vendor gets there money, and if you are REALLY lucky, you get a tiny frag 6months to a year later which is now worth (in funny money since the prices of corals are just made up) a fraction of the cost as it was a year ago since everybody who bought whole frags have since grown them up and have been re-fragging them and so on. Maybe I'm wrong? What are you guys thoughts. I am missing something here? I just don't see anybody saving money this way. Why not just buy 1 piece, grow that out and trade it for the other stuff you want?

**Mr E Wrasse** · 05-01-2012, 08:20 PM

Funny you bring that up.... I just received my frags today from a growout that started a little over 2 years ago. The headliner of the growout was the My Miami along with a few other choice pieces. While i wasn't expecting it to take quite this long to receive the frags, my $200 investment got me my My Miami frag along with 6 other nice frags (of which i had already obtained half of them since the growout started). But at the end of the day I'm a happy camper and i got a lot of nice frags on the cheap. I don't think i would do it again because of the risk that's involved but it worked out well for me and the others in the growout!

**RacinRevo0818** · 05-01-2012, 08:22 PM

It's like gambling I guess. You know there's a good chance your gonna lose but maybe get lucky. I'm in a grow out I'm in $500 for about $4500 worth of chalices. So even if only 1 of the 7 make I would be doing ok. Also the vendors cut better deals for large purchases. We paid $2500 for the pack so it's a big risk!! But chance of a great reward

**luvmyacans** · 05-01-2012, 08:24 PM

I think it depends on the coral species you're referring to. If you're talking about zoos, plays, acans, SPS, I think it can be worth the risk. For a slow growing coral, it depends on what everyone is expecting.

I think the key to a successful growout is good communication. We all know things happen unexpectedly in this hobby, it's when that's not being communicated to the group that invested in the project that it becomes an issue.

I'm in an acan growout that I'm sure you've read and although we're having some communication issues, once resolved it'll end up being an epic growout. We've got over 30 high end acans and will end up with much more than we spent.

**MattL22** · 05-01-2012, 08:44 PM

Seems like a lot of the grow outs don't turn out so well ! I'd love to do one locally but never with ppl I didn't know!

**emerald525** · 05-01-2012, 09:21 PM

I have had great luck locally doing growouts. I have learned a lot with the experience. I have had the best luck with zoas as they tend to grow fast than chalices. The most important lessons I have learned is who I can trust and will not go MIA. I have learned
1. Set up ground rules
2. Select people you have personally dealt with and have regular contact and communication with
3. Pick a vendor who you trust
4. Keep the group relatively small 10 or less would be the maximum
5. Be patient

**revhtree** · 05-01-2012, 10:09 PM

This is going to be a good thread. I have been involved in two and I haven't got anything from either.

**1mbrews8** · 05-01-2012, 10:37 PM

fingers crossed in the 2 im in..

)

communication is key. I dont care what is going on in your life, you have 2 seconds to get on the computer or text if everything is alive or dead.. at least once every 2 weeks..

i am leading another, and i try for pics at least 1x a month and an update every week..

**ingtar_shinowa** · 05-01-2012, 10:49 PM

Some people grow corals stupid fast. I can keep anything 'alive' but until recently I got very little growth on my old system. A grow out made sense to me back then. Now-a-days I don't know if I would do so because of the risk.

**Loki** · 05-01-2012, 11:18 PM

I'm in one and I will never do it again. So far nothing bad has happened, but I won't do another. I don't have the personality type to allow someone to grow stuff for me. In the huge high dollar grow outs it can be worth it if they grow fast.

**reefkoi** · 05-02-2012, 12:22 AM

I am a vendor but hopefully you guys dont read my reply as one sided or anything. I honestly have never thought this idea was good, you get $2,000 worth of corals at todays price, then in 6 mos- a year when you finally get a frag the market value has dropped down to where you probably aren't ahead any....
and thats not worth the gamble IMO, I'm not sure when or where the "growout" idea even started, but I've only heard of it on here I think or maybe another forum or 2 at the most.

C

**brahm** · 05-02-2012, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mr E Wrasse

Funny you bring that up.... I just received my frags today from a growout that started a little over 2 years ago. The headliner of the growout was the My Miami along with a few other choice pieces. While i wasn't expecting it to take quite this long to receive the frags, my $200 investment got me my My Miami frag along with 6 other nice frags (of which i had already obtained half of them since the growout started). But at the end of the day I'm a happy camper and i got a lot of nice frags on the cheap. I don't think i would do it again because of the risk that's involved but it worked out well for me and the others in the growout!

That doesn't bother you that you spent 200$ And it took over 2 Years ago, and just got frags now? I know we all plan on keeping our tanks a long time, but 2 years that's some serious time. Granted in the grand scheme of things 200$ isn't a lot in terms of the amount of money we spend on corals. But how big were the frags you received after all that time. The best part of our tanks (imop) is growing our corals. I donnu the whole concept just seems a little strange to me. In the end though, as long as you were happy w/the deal you got it was a good deal.

**mcarroll** · 05-02-2012, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by brahm

Is it just me or does it seem like grow outs are the pyramid scheme of reefing. I'm not talking about any one in particular but I casually browse the group buy forum and I see a lot of grow outs. I've been tempted to get it on one or to, but it just seems like a large percent of them end up with the grower going MIA, the corals Dying, or some other debacle. In the end the vendor gets there money, and if you are REALLY lucky, you get a tiny frag 6months to a year later which is now worth (in funny money since the prices of corals are just made up) a fraction of the cost as it was a year ago since everybody who bought whole frags have since grown them up and have been re-fragging them and so on. Maybe I'm wrong? What are you guys thoughts. I am missing something here? I just don't see anybody saving money this way. Why not just buy 1 piece, grow that out and trade it for the other stuff you want?

No experiences, but I will say it sounds like a funny way of going about fragging. Seems like only some pretty odd circumstances could lead to this making sense.

**Braves Fan** · 05-02-2012, 06:48 AM

I kinda follow these grow outs a bit, seems to me very few ever turn out good. The one thing that I tend to see happen a lot, that I really don't understand. The grow out participants pick one person to grow the corals out, instead of splitting the corals up thru the grow out participants. The grow out tank starts having problems and the next thing you read about is they have lost several of the corals in the package. I think grow outs going the way of the dinosaur is good for the hobby (this maybe a stretch

) The grow out corals are always high $$$ corals, this is, for the most part the only way they can be bought. Staying out of grow outs may bring the prices of corals down. If you have a Chalice that cost $1,500 per eye, very few are going to buy this, a coral vendor is selling corals to make $$$ if no one is buying, the price has only one way to go, down.

**Braves Fan** · 05-02-2012, 07:29 AM

We are really our own worst enemy in the hobby and its hurts the hobby as a whole. Every Saltwater hobbyist out there needs to make a commitment not to pay these coral prices, the prices will have only one way to go. I hear all the time "its just an expensive hobby" I disagree, its not. Once you have bought your equipment over time, you are good to go, its the corals that cost. $100 a polyp, $250 for a half inch frag give me a break, are we nuts, I have to take three days wages to buy a 1/2 inch frag. This is a game we shouldn't be playing. No one new is going to stay in this hobby. We have a movement in one of my local forums, members are giving corals frags away, free no charge, if you have something to trade, so much the better. Went into the LFS they are selling man made fake, purple painted live rock $7 a pound. These rocks weren't shipped from half way around the world, but they are still trying to get old live rock prices for this fake rock. But we just keep on buying, sooner or later we as hobbyist need to make a stand and it starts with each of us every time we pull out our wallet. This post may seem of topic, I don't know, don't think so, grow outs were started because of the high coral prices.

Rant over.

**fab1971** · 05-02-2012, 08:20 AM

I like the idea of growing out but only if it's people you trust and are local to you. I just can't see entrusting someone that is hundreds of miles away. Also pick one grower that is consistant and trustworthy. Communication is a must. Another major point is growing out between only 2 or 3 people the most. Makes for a quicker growout and less can go wrong in my opinion. I'm involved in one and I think the biggest mistake was to let it get too big. Because the growout expanded, the frags were distributed to different members but unfortunately, for whatever reasons, not everyone communicates or updates at the same level. Once that happens the trust level starts to diminish. Especially if there haven't been any rewards or benefits after waiting a full year.

**E.intheC** · 05-02-2012, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Braves Fan

We are really our own worst enemy in the hobby and its hurts the hobby as a whole. Every Saltwater hobbyist out there needs to make a commitment not to pay these coral prices, the prices will have only one way to go. I hear all the time "its just an expensive hobby" I disagree, its not. Once you have bought your equipment over time, you are good to go, its the corals that cost. $100 a polyp, $250 for a half inch frag give me a break, are we nuts, I have to take three days wages to buy a 1/2 inch frag. This is a game we shouldn't be playing. No one new is going to stay in this hobby. We have a movement in one of my local forums, members are giving corals frags away, free no charge, if you have something to trade, so much the better. Went into the LFS they are selling man made fake, purple painted live rock $7 a pound. These rocks weren't shipped from half way around the world, but they are still trying to get old live rock prices for this fake rock. But we just keep on buying, sooner or later we as hobbyist need to make a stand and it starts with each of us every time we pull out our wallet. This post may seem of topic, I don't know, don't think so, grow outs were started because of the high coral prices.

Rant over.

I agree 100%. I'm always amazed LFS are able to sell Xenia at $50 per frag too, but that's a different topic.

The hyped prices and named corals is just a ridiculous trend. I remember there was a thread (on a different forum) where people we're arguing over whether or not they got the "real" purple hornets because the polyp didn't have alternating yellow skirts. Really? I guess they're different polyps, but who cares? You're not going to see the difference unless you're looking right at them with your face on the glass anyway.

These grow out threads do two things IMO. They expose the participants to considerable monetary risk and headache, and they continue to facilitate the vendors who charge insane prices for corals. My 2 cents...

**fab1971** · 05-02-2012, 08:31 AM

I think you guys are bringing this off topic. Naming corals and high priced pieces should be a seperate thread. Don't bring that debate into this conversation. We've all seen where that goes. While everyone has there opinons, tastes and preferences, I think this should remain about growouts.

**H2O** · 05-02-2012, 08:58 AM

I must say the grow out idea is not bad but its the HIGH coral prices that r to blame for this to begin with
Rare , LE ,jf ,sexy etc add a fancy name and now its $600 for a $6 frag But let's be serious
I'm ****** because those prices r driving people out of the hobby I lost a couple of buddys already

some more r hanging on the fance .
For those to blame...Keep it a hobby stop being greedy !!!

**hlem** · 05-02-2012, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by reefkoi

I am a vendor but hopefully you guys dont read my reply as one sided or anything. I honestly have never thought this idea was good, you get $2,000 worth of corals at todays price, then in 6 mos- a year when you finally get a frag the market value has dropped down to where you probably aren't ahead any....
and thats not worth the gamble IMO, I'm not sure when or where the "growout" idea even started, but I've only heard of it on here I think or maybe another forum or 2 at the most.

C

grow out probably evolved from the GroupBuy concept, but more dedicated. like GB, success is in the hands of the organizer (grower for grow out). bad organizer = bad GB, good organizer = good GB.