2 part issues

[NewYorkReefer1988]

I am currently dosing about 250 ml of calcium and Alk a day to keep up with my 9.0 DKH and 420 Calcium. This seems like a lot as I am going through a gallon jug about every 10 days or so. My tank is a 3 month old 120 gallon tank with about 20 small LPS and SPS frags and I dose each element on the hour with BRS dosers alternating between ALk and CAL throughout the day. It’s dosed into a powerhead in my sump and there is about 45 minutes in between each alternating element. Just wondering if this is normal? And if not, any ideas on why I’m chewing through so much two part chemicals? (My only thought is that my MG is a little high at 1380?...

 

[Bryce M.]

LPS is a very broad category, are you referencing arcos? If so, they chug calcium and Alk

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

LPS is a very broad category, are you referencing arcos? If so, they chug calcium and Alk

I have a couple monties, 1 Acro, 1 birds nest, and a few others, bunch of favias, And some others but they are all tiny frags and I’m dumping in C and ALK like it’s nobodies business. Just seems off to me

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

LPS is a very broad category, are you referencing arcos? If so, they chug calcium and Alk

But I’m testing every day with Red Sea C fest kit and ALK hanna checker and it’s definitely correct. And I don’t see how it could be precipitation due to the high flow area and length in between doses.

 

[hotashes]

Maybe too much dilution has gave a weaker stock solution. Have you considered a stronger mix?

A.

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

Maybe too much dilution has gave a weaker stock solution. Have you considered a stronger mix?

A.

The thought had occurred to me but I just follow the BRS recommendation on their bulk 2 part mixes. Didn’t know if there might be any issues with mixing a stronger dose. Is that doable? To mix say double the powder into the 1 gallon jugs? Of course that would still leave the problem of having to buy the stuff very often.

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

Maybe too much dilution has gave a weaker stock solution. Have you considered a stronger mix?

A.

Really I’m just trying to find out why the hell I have to use so much. The BRS videos I’ve seen on 2 part say that the 7 gallon bags of the 2 part chemicals should last a year on all but the most heavily stocked tanks. Mine is gonna end up lasting about 2 1/2 months. Maybe 3 if I’m lucky...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Really I’m just trying to find out why the hell I have to use so much. The BRS videos I’ve seen on 2 part say that the 7 gallon bags of the 2 part chemicals should last a year on all but the most heavily stocked tanks. Mine is gonna end up lasting about 2 1/2 months. Maybe 3 if I’m lucky...

First step is to figure out if what you are using is a lot or not. mL per day is an almost meaningless number, especially since there are different recipes around, and even BRS sells at least two different ones..

We have to use a calculator to figure out what amounts you are dosing.

I'll assume that you used sodium carbonate (not sodium bicarbonate) to make my DIY recipe #1 (which BRS uses). In a 120 gallon tank, 250 mL per day is about 3 dKH per day.

That's at the high end of normal for a reef tank. With a lot of coralline and corals, it can be that high, but there may be other contributors as well (e.g., precipitation).

Is the sand hardening? Does the powerhead get clogged? Do you see solid precipitation anywhere else?

If you are using the sodium bicarbonate recipe, the dose is normal since it is more dilute (1.5 dKH per day).

No, you cannot easily make it a lot more concentrated. I designed it to facilitate mixing and it gets harder and harder to mix as the concentration rises.

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

First step is to figure out if what you are using is a lot or not. mL per day is an almost meaningless number, especially since there are different recipes around, and even BRS sells at least two different ones..

We have to use a calculator to figure out what amounts you are dosing.

I'll assume that you used sodium carbonate (not sodium bicarbonate) to make my DIY recipe #1 (which BRS uses). In a 120 gallon tank, 250 mL per day is about 3 dKH per day.

That's at the high end of normal for a reef tank. With a lot of coralline and corals, it can be that high, but there may be other contributors as well (e.g., precipitation).

Is the sand hardening? Does the powerhead get clogged? Do you see solid precipitation anywhere else?

If you are using the sodium bicarbonate recipe, the dose is normal since it is more dilute (1.5 dKH per day).

No, you cannot easily make it a lot more concentrated. I designed it to facilitate mixing and it gets harder and harder to mix as the concentration rises.

Thanks for your reply, I also shot this question off at #ASKbrstv on Facebook and someone linked me to the faq#38 on YouTube. It says that if you are dosing as much as I am on a low demand tank then it’s almost certainly the fact that I’m dosing as much as I am that’s the issue. Based on what BRS said in the video, that high a dose will cause the elements to not be able to fully resolve and will cause precipitation. Now that I’m looking for it I do see white crust building up here and there and my water is always kind of cloudy even though I use the rox 0.8 carbon so I’m pretty sure that’s the ticket. I am going to follow BRs’s advice and stop dosing for a day, then use the calculator to hand dose the proper amount and see what happens after the dose. Hopefully I see the levels rise to the corresponding amount... god I hope so lol! Thanks so much for the help though. I really appreciate it!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

lol

FWIW, as the inventor of the product you are using, I would give somewhat different and more extensive advice, if you are interested.

The things you can do to reduce precipitation are detailed in many threads here, but they include:

1. stopping dosing for a few days to allow the fresh calcium carbonate surfaces to become “clogged” with phosphate, magnesium, and organics.

2. Switch to a sodium bicarbonate based two part instead of sodium carbonate.

3. Dilute it more before dosing.

4. Dose to a higher flow area to disperse it faster as it is the concentrated alk part in the water that is the primary issue,.

5. Spread out the dosing as much as possible.

6. Dose at night when pH is lowest.

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

lol

FWIW, as the inventor of the product you are using, I would give somewhat different and more extensive advice, if you are interested.

The things you can do to reduce precipitation are detailed in many threads here, but they include:

1. stopping dosing for a few days to allow the fresh calcium carbonate surfaces to become “clogged” with phosphate, magnesium, and organics.

2. Switch to a sodium bicarbonate based two part instead of sodium carbonate.

3. Dilute it more before dosing.

4. Dose to a higher flow area to disperse it faster as it is the concentrated alk part in the water that is the primary issue,.

5. Spread out the dosing as much as possible.

6. Dose at night when pH is lowest.

Ok thanks for the advise! I have been dosing on the hour to try to avoid big swings in between doses. Is this not the right way to dose? Otherwise the dkh will drop significantly throughout the day and then come up rapidly when I dose all the Alk for the day

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

Or at least that’s my understanding of it but obviously I defer to you on this. Also yes my sand is hardening and I am seeing precipitation. So you think I should stop dosing for a couple of days instead of just the one day?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Or at least that’s my understanding of it but obviously I defer to you on this. Also yes my sand is hardening and I am seeing precipitation. So you think I should stop dosing for a couple of days instead of just the one day?

Yes, several days.

It is not obvious that just changing the dosing will change the preciptiation (many people have this issue), but doing what I suggest is all you can do, except for lowering the alk target as low as you are comfortable (say, 6.5 dKH).

FWIW, it is not surprising that calcium carbonate can precipitate because it is supersaturated in reef tanks and normal ocean water. So if it has a fresh surface of calcium carbonate (like new sand) to act as a seed crystal for precipitation, it will do so.

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

Yes, several days.

It is not obvious that just changing the dosing will change the preciptiation (many people have this issue), but doing what I suggest is all you can do, except for lowering the alk target as low as you are comfortable (say, 6.5 dKH).

FWIW, it is not surprising that calcium carbonate can precipitate because it is supersaturated in reef tanks and normal ocean water. So if it has a fresh surface of calcium carbonate (like new sand) to act as a seed crystal for precipitation, it will do so.

Ok that makes sense. I was holding at about 7.5 or 8 dkh with no issues and only had problems once I started shooting for 9.5 because I read that elevated dkh can give elevated growth. I will take what you are saying to heart and try it. And that bit about the new sand bed makes sense as well considering I am new to this and my tank, and therefore sand, is only 3 months old.

On the topic of dosing times and schedule I’ve gotten conflicting advise, but the main advise I keep getting is to try to dose throughout the day to avoid big swings in chemistry. Do you think this is sound advise or is it better to dose all of my daily Alk at say midnight, then dose all of my daily C at say noon?

Thanks again for the help randy, I really appreciate you taking the time [emoji4]

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok that makes sense. I was holding at about 7.5 or 8 dkh with no issues and only had problems once I started shooting for 9.5 because I read that elevated dkh can give elevated growth.

It can, but it comes with a price of more precipitation and more need to maintain adequate nutrients for corals (or else they get burnt tips on some SPS , perhaps due to skeletons growing faster than tissue can keep up).

On the topic of dosing times and schedule I’ve gotten conflicting advise, but the main advise I keep getting is to try to dose throughout the day to avoid big swings in chemistry. Do you this this is sound advise or is it better to dose all of my Alk at say midnight, then dose all of my daily C at day noon?

There's different advise for different purposes.

Dosing spread through the day for maximum alkalinity stability which may help some SPS. Folks who do this claim it works best for their tanks.

Dose high pH alk additives at night for maximum pH stability, which might help some corals grow faster, or at least not be stressed by very low pH. This one may be more important if the pH is getting really low (below 7.7).

It doesn't matter, IMO, when or how you dose calcium as long as it is not less than once a day. It changes little and isn't usually a limiting factor in calcification.

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

Right, that makes sense. If I chose to, would alternating between calcium and alkalinity throughout the day with at least 50 minutes in between cause precipitation? I would like to do it this way eventually for stability but only once I get this whole mess figured out and stabilized. If possible...

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

Again, really appreciate the help!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Alternating like that is fine. Easiest switch is to lower alk and use baking soda for the alk dosing.

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

Alternating like that is fine. Easiest switch is to lower alk and use baking soda for the alk dosing.

Ok will do Randy. Thank you so much!

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

Quick question, I’m at hour 26 since I stopped dosing and I’m all the way down to 6.1 DKH. From 9.4. Should I still wait for 48 hours before dosing again or should I dose sooner? considering how low it is.