A discussion on immunity

[Humblefish]

Great post @jenreefer!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Snails? Yes Cheato? No - just rinse it in a bucket and place in the tank Now i exit this thread again..... quietly..... you didn't see me here

me, I know. some actually dont.

Thanks Mel

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I just can't advocate that new reefers p

no one does. that's the thing.

 

[mcarroll]

I have been following this thread and have almost posted my thoughts several times.

Don't wait so long next time – that was a mega-post!

Bear with me on these replies....I may have missed a few sections, but I tried.

They either starve them or feed foods that do not meet the nutritional needs of the fish they keep.

Nutritional needs makes me think of protein, vitamins, minerals and such.

There's a connection between those things and immunity too, but that's not usually what's missing at all. Flake and pellet foods are generally replete, for example. What's missing are things like micro-organisms and oils.

And how many times have I read on here that people overfeed their fish. Hogwash.

Not too many folks get the terminology right, but they're really referring to over-feeding a tank. Over-feeding usually corresponds to over-stocking.

Overfeeding a lightly stocked tank may have happened somewhere in history, but I haven't run into it.

Most folks have no sense of their tank's limits since most folks tend to fill up their tanks in one fell swoop with whatever they deem the "correct" amount of livestock.

Cats need taurine in their diet or they develop heart disease. How many years of research was involved in finally discovering this.

Funny example cuz taurine isn't hard to come by if you let them eat what they're supposed to eat rather than sticking grain in all their food.

We only required years of research to figure out that it's not good to feed cats non-cat food.

Dumb mistake in retrospect....hopefully we don't have to wait for even more years of research to reach the same conclusion for fish.

What if a well fed fish produces a better slime coat,

What if?? That was covered in this thread.

When the good bacteria are low, the bad bacteria have room to outcompete and overwhelm the animal's system. When this happens, the food is not properly digested and absorbed.

That's a simplification and leaves aside all the connections to immunity and other cool unknowns. I re-posted a few links earlier on this....check out the one on lactic acid bacteria for starters.

Again, this is not immunity, but part the animal's internal ecosystem. Just like any ecosystem, if it gets out of balance, an overgrowth of an unwanted or detrimental pathogen can take hold and begin to cause disease.

Again with the selective conflating and ignoring. (mentioned earlier....I think we've all been doing it in various amounts)

It is related to immunity. In fact, according to one of those links above, eating (as we know it) may have been what actually drove the development of the secondary immune response.

So what is immunity?

Check out the "Ontogeny..." article linked earlier.

How did he get his tank this way? Years of keeping fish that for whatever reason are able to keep the parasite from completing its life cycle.

No it was not special fish that only Paul can get. This one is a little irritating. Special fish are the key? No.

When Paul is able to bottle his success and sell it, he will make a bundle. I personally would love to see this.

There will never be expertise in a bottle....and that's literally what it would take to make most of the tanks you see on the net work without bringing fish to an early demise.

The realistic way to get there is actually via experience.

Paul has a lot more experience than most, yet we don't want to listen to him or even attempt a new approach like we're the ones who know something.

If we simply acted like the beginners we are, wouldn't we start small, with one or two fish and take is slowly from there? Minimize the effects of failures and give ourselves a chance to accumulate some experience from watching our tanks grow!

But we do not.

According to the guiding lights of the hobby, we're supposed to tell these "expert beginners" that QT and copper will make it all OK.

I think that's where the hogwash comes in.

People don't act like beginners and they don't go slow. I think the poor results (dead fish, etc) are actually a little predictable under these circumstances and that blaming the disease or the fish is a bit of a cop out.

The real downer is that there's no way to prevent this from happening. Perhaps back in the heyday of LFS's there was a strong chance that, as a beginner, you'd talk to someone before setting up a new tank.....which enables the possibility that they might discover you have no idea what you're doing so as to prevent you from filling your tank with livestock.

Nowadays it's worse as so many tanks are being set up without the newbie even leaving home, reading a book or talking to anyone. They can just set up their 10 gallon QT and order a box of fish online. And they do.

 

[bios]

@Brew12 . Hi brew
To answer to your question
We have at first focused our attention on a disease ex:
discussion on immunity in cryptocharion disease or.. another disease
Second we have to focused our attention on a step of immunoreaction during the disease or before the disease start
So is correct to try to erase the disease by a qt?... yes
So is correct to help fish to contrast the disease with food and nutrion?.. yes
Or we want to do a vaccine to prevent the disease.. yes
Different way but correct both

 

[bios]

For exemple focusing our attention on crypto
I will say:
I do a qt to the fish to prevent the pathology... ok thats right
Second when i place the fish in the tank the disease apear for different reasons...
And so i help the fish feeding with very healty food... ok thats right
But disease break out again in the tank
What i do now? , this is the field for an immunology and epidemiology study

 

[mcarroll]

...that's when you have to look at stress factors and not only diet.

 

[bios]

At first there is a recognition of the host by crypto and thats is for sure due to some proteins present in fish skin or mucus ...
I saw in this forum an article related to a vaccine against crypto, they do a shake of
Skin of infected fish but healty
With the aim to inject it in a fish and induce syntesis of antibodies
IT not work
Probably are different kind of crypto
Or probably crypto can act different strategies to recognize and infect the host

 

[bios]

Second step crypto is present in the fish what it do? , it start to digest tissue of the host so there is an enzimatic reaction we have to identify those enzimes and stimulate the fish to produce antibodies in presence of them
And so on..

 

[eatbreakfast]

For exemple focusing our attention on crypto
I will say:
I do a qt to the fish to prevent the pathology... ok thats right
Second when i place the fish in the tank the disease apear for different reasons...
And so i help the fish feeding with very healty food... ok thats right
But disease break out again in the tank
What i do now? , this is the field for an immunology and epidemiology study

But for the sake of those with a pro qt stance, if the proper qt protocals are followed, situation 2 and 3 don't come in to affect because the pathogen (in this case ich) isn't faced by the fish, but proper nutrition and limiting stress are still the goal.

Don't wait so long next time – that was a mega-post!

Bear with me on these replies....I may have missed a few sections, but I tried.



Nutritional needs makes me think of protein, vitamins, minerals and such.

There's a connection between those things and immunity too, but that's not usually what's missing at all. Flake and pellet foods are generally replete, for example. What's missing are things like micro-organisms and oils.



Not too many folks get the terminology right, but they're really referring to over-feeding a tank. Over-feeding usually corresponds to over-stocking.

Overfeeding a lightly stocked tank may have happened somewhere in history, but I haven't run into it.

Most folks have no sense of their tank's limits since most folks tend to fill up their tanks in one fell swoop with whatever they deem the "correct" amount of livestock.



Funny example cuz taurine isn't hard to come by if you let them eat what they're supposed to eat rather than sticking grain in all their food.

We only required years of research to figure out that it's not good to feed cats non-cat food.

Dumb mistake in retrospect....hopefully we don't have to wait for even more years of research to reach the same conclusion for fish.



What if?? That was covered in this thread.



That's a simplification and leaves aside all the connections to immunity and other cool unknowns. I re-posted a few links earlier on this....check out the one on lactic acid bacteria for starters.



Again with the selective conflating and ignoring. (mentioned earlier....I think we've all been doing it in various amounts)

It is related to immunity. In fact, according to one of those links above, eating (as we know it) may have been what actually drove the development of the secondary immune response.



Check out the "Ontogeny..." article linked earlier.



No it was not special fish that only Paul can get. This one is a little irritating. Special fish are the key? No.



There will never be expertise in a bottle....and that's literally what it would take to make most of the tanks you see on the net work without bringing fish to an early demise.

The realistic way to get there is actually via experience.

Paul has a lot more experience than most, yet we don't want to listen to him or even attempt a new approach like we're the ones who know something.

If we simply acted like the beginners we are, wouldn't we start small, with one or two fish and take is slowly from there? Minimize the effects of failures and give ourselves a chance to accumulate some experience from watching our tanks grow!

But we do not.

According to the guiding lights of the hobby, we're supposed to tell these "expert beginners" that QT and copper will make it all OK.

I think that's where the hogwash comes in.

People don't act like beginners and they don't go slow. I think the poor results (dead fish, etc) are actually a little predictable under these circumstances and that blaming the disease or the fish is a bit of a cop out.

The real downer is that there's no way to prevent this from happening. Perhaps back in the heyday of LFS's there was a strong chance that, as a beginner, you'd talk to someone before setting up a new tank.....which enables the possibility that they might discover you have no idea what you're doing so as to prevent you from filling your tank with livestock.

Nowadays it's worse as so many tanks are being set up without the newbie even leaving home, reading a book or talking to anyone. They can just set up their 10 gallon QT and order a box of fish online. And they do.

Almost the entirety of what Paul does and advises is sound. The problem is that he all to often jumps in a discussion where somebody is dealing with a fish disease or is asking about qt procedures, even though the person is still a beginner or at least relatively new and gives them all this bluster on how qt is unnecessary and at the root of the issues in the first place, but then a few posts later will concede that actually beginers should qt.

 

[bios]

here is a short summary on immunosystem in fish
it act by two different ways first is NON SPECIFIC DEFENSES
it is a multifactors way able to prevent infections or give a response able to control its diffusion.
they act in a nonspecific way and have not a memory as they are strictly connected to causative agent.
first defense is skin and mucus ; as cells of skin, gills,and gastrointestinal mucosa continosly produce mucus increasing its production during infectioon process.
Mucus contain: Lysozyme (Lysis of polysaccharides of bacterial wall),Bacteriolysina(unmediated by lysozyme or antibodies)
proteolitic enzymes,properdin, C-reactiveprotein,immunocomplement(activedboth from antigen-antibodie complex and from above mentioned).
If pathogen penetrates those defenses will be actived the inflammatory response similar to one present in other vertebrates include human
as it increase capillaries permeability influx of blood cells ,liberation and release of bichemical mediators , phagocytosis , and fobroblast increase.
Phagocitosis wich seem to be essential , is acted by macrophages wich are widespread in kidney,spleen and atrium hearth are present as reticuloendothelial cells and are influenced by lymphokines.
The immunocomplement is specie-specific and if actived act: Phagocytosis increase , intracellular lysis , inactivating endotoxins and virus neutralization.
SPECIFIC DEFENSES
ARE specific against the pathogen are present in antibodies as a result of cells activity , they could be free or binded in a complex with:
lymphocytes , macrophages.
we know the ones similar to mamm. IgM
They can be agglutinin,precipitins and antibodies fixating immunocomplement.
they depends on temp.
AND SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH

 

[Brew12]

no one does. that's the thing.

Paul's initial post does recommend exposing fish to stuff like Ich and Velvet. And as I have said a few times, it works for Paul. It won't work for most.

 

[Brew12]

here is a short summary on immunosystem in fish
it act by two different ways first is NON SPECIFIC DEFENSES
it is a multifactors way able to prevent infections or give a response able to control its diffusion.
they act in a nonspecific way and have not a memory as they are strictly connected to causative agent.
first defense is skin and mucus ; as cells of skin, gills,and gastrointestinal mucosa continosly produce mucus increasing its production during infectioon process.
Mucus contain: Lysozyme (Lysis of polysaccharides of bacterial wall),Bacteriolysina(unmediated by lysozyme or antibodies)
proteolitic enzymes,properdin, C-reactiveprotein,immunocomplement(activedboth from antigen-antibodie complex and from above mentioned).
If pathogen penetrates those defenses will be actived the inflammatory response similar to one present in other vertebrates include human
as it increase capillaries permeability influx of blood cells ,liberation and release of bichemical mediators , phagocytosis , and fobroblast increase.
Phagocitosis wich seem to be essential , is acted by macrophages wich are widespread in kidney,spleen and atrium hearth are present as reticuloendothelial cells and are influenced by lymphokines.
The immunocomplement is specie-specific and if actived act: Phagocytosis increase , intracellular lysis , inactivating endotoxins and virus neutralization.
SPECIFIC DEFENSES
ARE specific against the pathogen are present in antibodies as a result of cells activity , they could be free or binded in a complex with:
lymphocytes , macrophages.
we know the ones similar to mamm. IgM
They can be agglutinin,precipitins and antibodies fixating immunocomplement.
they depends on temp.
AND SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH

Don't apologize! I absolutely love the knowledge you have to share!

 

[bios]

But for the sake of those with a pro qt stance, if the proper qt protocals are followed, situation 2 and 3 don't come in to affect because the pathogen (in this case ich) isn't faced by the fish, but proper nutrition and limiting stress are still the goal.

Hi eat..
What is a qt, a quarantine tank to observe and monitorize the fish
Or an hospital tank?

 

[eatbreakfast]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/
A protocol to ensure disease and parasites don't make it into the display. Which would include some prophylactic treatment.

 

[laga77]

After viewing posts for the past few years on this subject, there are a couple of conclusions I have come to. First off, most fish are under fed. Reefers are so afraid of algae problems they limit the amount of food they feed instead of having the proper nutrient export system. Second, not only are the fish underfed, they are malnourished. There really is not very much in dry food to support a marine fish long term. Yes, it happens, but the odds are against you. Read the ingredient list on a dry food and it is mostly fish or krill meal that has had the oils pressed out, preservatives, and terrestrial foods. This is basically the menu, in one form or another, they feed to all farmed animals. Scraps from food production for humans makes up the bulk of a lot of feed for commercially farmed animals. The biggest problem with this is the animals lose their immunity and have to be dosed with antibiotics constantly. This is because of the stress they are under. The same for fish in a box. When they are overcrowded, or mixed with the wrong type of tank mates, poor water quality, and poor food, what do you expect? The last time I lost a fish to disease was 5 years ago next month. Thats also the last time I fed dry food. Thats when I started doing some research and found Paul B`s posts. I utilized most of what he says and developed my own plan which includes, fresh foods, high water quality, and good husbandry. Instead of squeezing in just one more fish into the tank, I set up another tank. Right now I have 53 fish in 6 tanks. In the last two years the longest I have QT a fish was 2 weeks. It takes a lot of time and effort, but I am retired and can do it.

 

[Paul B]

First off I need to say, if any Noobs are reading this thread, put your fingers in your ears as this will totally confuse you. Do not put sick fish in your tank and keep quarantining. Your fish are not healthy I don't care if they are attending college and texting you. Your tank just doesn't have the stability through the correct bacteria needed to become stable.

Wow, I love the interest and the fact that everyone is so polite. I just love it.

Jen, best post I ever read, I like it better than mine and I have a professional speech writer do mine.

Read the ingredient list on a dry food and it is mostly fish or krill meal that has had the oils pressed out, preservatives, and terrestrial foods. This is basically the menu, in one form or another, they feed to all farmed animals.

This I have said 500 times

Almost the entirety of what Paul does and advises is sound. The problem is that he all to often jumps in a discussion where somebody is dealing with a fish disease or is asking about qt procedures, even though the person is still a beginner or at least relatively new and gives them all this bluster on how qt is unnecessary and at the root of the issues in the first place, but then a few posts later will concede that actually beginers should qt.

He actually does not do that. (OK maybe once) He always states that Noobs should quarantine as all Noob tanks are not going to be healthy. (That is in my book) I also say that Noobs put too much validity in those stupid test kits that tell them their tank cycled yesterday at 2:00pm. I tell them that if their ammonia went to zero, that means their tank has enough bacteria to process one dead table shrimp and nothing more. New tanks (and to me a new tank is 4 or 5 years old) is never going to be very healthy which is why all the sick fish on disease threads are new tanks. Most anyway.
I have experience curing all fish diseases and was called many times to wholesalers in Manhattan to cure their systems. I have also set up 4 aquarium stores for people and kept their fish healthy though mostly NSW, copper and the proper nutrition. I didn't start in this last Tuesday but it was the Tuesday that the hobby started, and I evolved along with the hobby and the procedures that we now use. I rarely get involved on forums with disease but I get PMs almost every day asking for advice. That advice never says to give up quarantine because Noobs have to quarantine for the reasons I stated about new tanks.

That is why I think Paul has an excellent system, but it is only for experienced hobbyists. We should all follow (most of) his nutrition practices but the rest of the way he does things isn't for everyone.

So, you don't like undergravel filters!

Cheers my friend,

Cheers to you also my Friend And Merry Christmas.

Most people in this hobby haven't been here 5 years let alone 50. Many lack the experience and stability you provide. The overwhelming majority of hobbyists don't feed their fish as well as you do and don't intend to do so with their busy family and work lives long term.

I am retired about 9 years now, but for the last 45 years I had a job in Manhattan. I also had a kid. My job as a General Foreman was often running 125 men in the electrical construction industry which was stressful and time consuming. We have also had power outages, money problems, sickness and everything that normal people face. Does it make me bad for wanting to teach the methods that have made my reef the oldest one on here with 25 year old spawning fish that have never been sick! Am I qualified to teach my methods? I post what I feel should get fish healthy because I have been doing it probably longer than anyone here. But of course no one has to listen. People who are willing may take a little something that I learned and try it in their tank. My tank is not the best one on here, but it is far from the worst. I have also spent about 300 hours underwater studying fish in the sea to learn their natural behavior.

Add in many tangs (other than hippo and zebrasoma but particularly acanthurus) many angels, and other parasite prone difficult fish and your method will fail with a vengeance.

I know we went over this but over the last 4 decades I have had many tangs and angels. I kept all kinds of tangs along with lipstick, naso, hippo, zebrasoma, sailfin, acanthurus, and probably every other type. I just don't like them. I have also had plenty of butterflies and Moorish Idols which are just as susceptible. My Moorish Idol lived about 5 years, which stinks, but for a Moorish Idol that is practically a record. Most of my hippo tangs lived about ten years. A copperband or a long nose butterfly, both considered delicate fish have always been in my tank and I have my log book to show them. If I find an ich magnet tang, I will buy it, but in a few years you will have to come over to catch it to get it out of my tank as they get to big, and I find them boreing.

A fish will typically lose it's immunity to a parasite within 6 months of exposure to that parasite being removed. Paul's fish remain "immune" to ich and velvet because they are continuously exposed to it.

I "assume" parasites and other pathogens are alive and well in my tank living out their lives, just as they do in the sea, possibly sampling some of my fishes slime occasionally so they can re produce, stay healthy "and" continue to keep my fish immune even if I do not add anything from the sea. This is an assumption on my part but it seems to work.

But needlessly exposing them to pathogens is counter productive and is a stressor itself.

I am not advocating to purposely expose fish to anything. In the sea they are already exposed to pathogens and are immune to most of them. I am just saying to keep doing what the fish naturally does. It is un natural to keep a fish without any exposure to pathogens is it not!

How long does it take to get my fish immune? Is this something I can do 30 mins after I drop the sick fish in my DT?

This is easy to answer. Your fish come to you immune from the ocean. It is up to you to strengthen that immunity and not let it go to waste. You know my thoughts on that.

 

[Paul B]

A page from my Log book in 1976. As you can see I kept Moorish Idols, French Angels and a copperband butterfly. And that was 1976



Here I had a Naso, a hippo tang and a Batfish

 

[Brew12]

First off I need to say, if any Noobs are reading this thread, put your fingers in your ears as this will totally confuse you.

I know you say this all of the time but I wonder if you don't say it enough!

You even come out and strongly imply it with title of your book. "Avant-Garde" is not modern slang for Noob. It is a term used for those on the intellectual front edge.

I love your work and find it absolutely amazing. I also understand it doesn't apply to me. My concern is when people either try and follow parts of your method or encourage others to skip QT since you can do it. Your method should be studied and we can all learn from it. It is because of you that I started my fish on LRS. I think it is great if experienced reefers want to emulate your methods.

In my opinion, your method must remain for the "Avant-Garde" until they pull the majority of flake and pellet food off the shelves of stores. If the unwashed masses weren't using these products they wouldn't still be sold. Someone trying to emulate what they think you are saying who is also feeding only flake food will not like the results and the fish will be the ones suffering.

 

[ReefFrenzy]

I'm trying to finish an article for R2R which discusses some of the recent findings with regards to nutrition and how it relates to fish health, conditioning and breeding. I think much if it would apply to some of the points in this thread.