Are pride and hard work dead?

[jan4scuba]

Sure it is. Find something else to make or get into a new industry. Everybody and every company have to make these choices everyday. Don't get me wrong I'm not condoning it, but it's not going away. In fact it will get more and more cut throat when robots start building them and humans are out of the picture. 5 maybe 10 years if that and these factories will be cranking them out. And besides that when it breaks, you'll will print your spare parts with your 3D printer and fix it on the spot. Go look at some of the TED videos if you don't believe me. So yeah it's not that simple because the world is about to change again and we are not ready to deal with it. This is just a preview of what's about to happen with manufacturing.

 

[mcarroll]

I just judging from snibbets in their promo videos it appears that Tunze is at least partly robotic so I don't know that this is news to anyone.

I think it's OK for us to distinguish between fighting and fighting dirty. It's got to be at least as OK as it is for them to just knock off somebody else's product.

And I'm not sure why you feel need to defend the Chinese knockoff artist. They do not need your help, trust me!

Why not give them the same simple advice to pick a different industry and go somewhere else?

If u think pumps are expensive ...have you priced a state-of-the-art 3D printer???

I will never understand why we have so little compassion or even hatred for the local fish store, but we have unlimited forgiveness kindness and understanding and benefit of the doubt and - hey 50 bucks too! - for the Chinese knockoff artist or the anonymous online retailer.

You know the guy or gal running your local fish store is your neighbor, right?

 

[that Reef Guy]

I just judging from snibbets in their promo videos it appears that Tunze is at least partly robotic so I don't know that this is news to anyone.

I think it's OK for us to distinguish between fighting and fighting dirty. It's got to be at least as OK as it is for them to just knock off somebody else's product.

And I'm not sure why you feel need to defend the Chinese knockoff artist. They do not need your help, trust me!

Why not give them the same simple advice to pick a different industry and go somewhere else?

If u think pumps are expensive ...have you priced a state-of-the-art 3D printer???

I will never understand why we have so little compassion or even hatred for the local fish store, but we have unlimited forgiveness kindness and understanding and benefit of the doubt and - hey 50 bucks too! - for the Chinese knockoff artist or the anonymous online retailer.

You know the guy or gal running your local fish store is your neighbor, right?

Why do you say "so little compassion or even hatred for the local fish store"

I know plenty of people that Love the LFS.

 

[mcarroll]

Just a lot of heartless anti-LFS sentiment that seems to float around here - even outside this thread. (Not your post.)

 

[TheEngineer]

I think, like most businesses, you get the good and the bad. Same as with knockoff products, there are lousy imitations of what a LFS should be and it sours your impression of all of them.

 

[jan4scuba]

Let's take a vote on how many people "love their LFS" and how many people have had problems or issues with overpriced equipment, bad advice or them flat out lying just to make a sale not yo mrntion them just plain being arrogant. When I first decided to get back into the hobby I priced out what I needed on Amazon, BRS and Marine Depot. Then I went to the LFS fully intending to support them. Not only was the pricing anywhere from 40% to almost double every place else, he wouldn't even talk about a deal knowing full well that I knew what I wanted and researched the pricing. He then proceeded to tell me I had made the wrong choices and tried to upgrade everything. "My neighbor" basically tried to rip me off when all he had to do was make a deal and he would have made a customer for life.
So now my LFS could be in Cali, or Fla., although I live in NY. It's a flat world as far as I'm concerned and everyone is my neighbor if they can provide the quality, price and service I expect for my money.

As far as the Chinese ripoff artists go, all I'm saying that you can't stop it so why try. It really is a losing battle. This practice has reared it's ugly head in every industry that ever made money. Look at the auto, garment and paper industries. On the positive side it gives people who would never would have been able to afford this hobby a chance to get involved. And who knows maybe one day the Chinese will be the innovators similar to what the Japanese accomplished in audio and electronics early on.
As far as robotics and 3D printers go your unnecessary comment about the current state of the art pricing is a temporary situation. If you know anything about Moore's law it's very simple to predict the next 5 years. With that being said I've think all that could be said about this has been. It's a great philosophical argument and everyone needs to make their own decision on what they are comfortable with. Personally I have AI LED's Eheim heaters, a Tunze Skimmer and Jebao wave makers. The AI Prime had its share of design problems and was a nightmare to get to hang properly. Their screw was too short and the light never stayed parallel to the water. It took letters and calls and I even sent it back twice. CS was great but I would have rather it worked properly when I got it. My Jeabo's are approaching a year of constant and perfect working order. Go figure!!!!

 

[Brandon Donaldson]

You do not need expensive pumps.

5 of my 6 Tanks use Koralias which start at like $20 to $30

Yes, the expensive stuff is better but it is not required.

Your Corals will not die because you do not have the best stuff out there.

There are people that have been reefing for 40 years on this site.

Have they been using Vortechs for the last 40 years?

I don't see how since Vortechs have been around for 10 years.

I know you are in college and money is tight.

When I was in your shoes in college as well I used Koralias and didn't have any problems.



P.S. where did all this talk saying you HAVE TO HAVE the most expensive equipment come from?

It wasn't like that when I started in this hobby that is for sure.

That was my point exactly I have read up on pumps I know thay can burn out in a year or two But that is the beast I can buy right now in this moment I like the teck of this hobby and don't mind spending the money just bought the AI prime it was $210 that was all of my money from Christmas it not a lack of knowledge its a lack of money to spend I don't mind spending it but I'm not willing to spend it knowing it is going to put me in a major bind once I graduated ill make around $100000 a year then I can spend that money to get the beast (brand name) equipment a lot of the younger reef keepers like my self get bashed for simply not having the money this is a happy hobby people are friendly and really helpful I love the hobby just take into consideration not evry body has the tax bracket to buy the most expensive aka beast stuff the hobby is not going anywhere the lfs sells the cheep pumps and probably make more money off them than the hier end stuff

 

[that Reef Guy]

That was my point exactly I have read up on pumps I know thay can burn out in a year or two But that is the beast I can buy right now in this moment I like the teck of this hobby and don't mind spending the money just bought the AI prime it was $210 that was all of my money from Christmas it not a lack of knowledge its a lack of money to spend I don't mind spending it but I'm not willing to spend it knowing it is going to put me in a major bind once I graduated ill make around $100000 a year then I can spend that money to get the beast (brand name) equipment a lot of the younger reef keepers like my self get bashed for simply not having the money this is a happy hobby people are friendly and really helpful I love the hobby just take into consideration not evry body has the tax bracket to buy the most expensive aka beast stuff the hobby is not going anywhere the lfs sells the cheep pumps and probably make more money off them than the hier end stuff

I didn't see anybody bashing you or anybody else for not having expensive pumps?

This post has me confused?

 

[mcarroll]

The Chinese knockoff artists are taking "customers" who formerly would (or could) have purchased used top shelf equipment and they are now buying junk.

Nobody who wanted to end up in this hobby was excluded because of price. Ever. As my long-winded story earlier should at least somewhat have proved - I got into it when I was broke. When there were no Chinese knockoff artists. I found nothing wrong with buying everything used.

Apologies to everybody currently running these knock off pumps in your tank. This is just a thought not a knock against anyone. [emoji6][emoji3]

 

[mcarroll]

Over 20 years in the hobby. We have most of the same stores still open around here although they may have changed hands. Dozens of shops sounds like the market was oversaturated. I don't think margins is what kills that. It might be a factor though.

Even allowing for that, it's a large, metro area. 6 million'ish people now and it was a lot less people when the number of stores was higher. (We are talking 10-20 years of ramp-down at this point...starting around 2000 or so).

From my vantage point it looks like the economy, combined with China, combined with online is crushing the **** out of the LFS scene. I'm glad things are better in other places.

I have to imagine it's possibly worse in other places, tho. People regularly chime in on this or that thread about not having a LFS at all, or having only a single choice. Considering the size of my metro population, I'm not too far off of that statistic. Discounting PetCo's and PetSmarts, 75% of "local" fish stores in my area are 30-60 minutes away. I have one that's actually local.

 

[marvelousone]

There is to much Greed in the World.

 

[mcarroll]

Let's take a vote on how many people "love their LFS" and how many people have had problems or issues with overpriced equipment, bad advice or them flat out lying just to make a sale not yo mrntion them just plain being arrogant. When I first decided to get back into the hobby I priced out what I needed on Amazon, BRS and Marine Depot. Then I went to the LFS fully intending to support them. Not only was the pricing anywhere from 40% to almost double every place else, he wouldn't even talk about a deal knowing full well that I knew what I wanted and researched the pricing. He then proceeded to tell me I had made the wrong choices and tried to upgrade everything. "My neighbor" basically tried to rip me off when all he had to do was make a deal and he would have made a customer for life.[...]

If you walk into any shop telling them how much you're willing to pay for something - and it's other than the marked price - how would you expect to be treated?

You went to the LFS fully expecting to stick it to them with "fully researched online pricing"...in exchange for some alleged future loyalty of yours. Loyal cheapness from someone who's done nothing but insult them so far. Not a compelling offer and that's not supporting them - two opposing things. Shoot, you can even treat them as respectable neighbors and shop there (shop != buy) even if you can't afford their prices! I probably would! Wouldn't it be at least as logical to instead go in there, pay full boat and then expect their loyalty in the future? If you don't trust them that way, why should they trust you? You *might* be able to pull something like that with an owner you knew *really well*....like personal friends.

That kind of move is not the only way to deal with local prices that are too high for your wallet, though - certainly not the best way.

Why not shop for the same gear used, rather than being bitter that you can't afford your LFS? You save a pile of worry with the lower price tags. And you can afford the very best equipment - which is almost invariably both long-lasting and fully maintainable....i.e. low risk. Shopping this way lacks the "buy it now" feeling you may also be after, but if you can leave that feeling aside, it's the best way to get a really good value with the least amount of worry in lots of folks' experience.

Just to throw it out there, why not even try to get a part time job at the LFS? They always need part time weekend sales help - especially if you know anything! Earn the discount you wanted for free AND get the chance to give out good advice for them! (And get paid for your time to do all that, to boot!! Goodbye bitter!!)

I'm sorry their prices are too high for you, btw - I'm not saying you have to like it. Same goes to anyone who can't afford all the latest gear at the LFS. I really can't afford a lot of the new priced gear at my LFS either, I just don't see undercutting honest manufacturers and LFS's as benefiting me.

I think there are both good and bad ways lack of affordability can be addressed....and we need to do a better job as customers in picking the good ways as often as we can. Simple as that.

 

[TaylorPilot]

There is a difference between hard work and value.
And the value of a high-end powerhead may not have the same reality attached to it that a Yeti cooler has. Yeti is really, really hard to copy, and delivers on the promises. Therein lies it's value. Try building a one-piece metal box with an internal vacuum.

Check these out. Can't tell a difference in quality. Half the price. Yeti makes good ice coolers but they are crazy expensive. I consider it the same as buying designer clothes or purses. They quality is there, but 90% of it is the name. Before anyone says that Yeti innovated that, Coleman has been making double wall vacuum insulated stainless thermos since forever.

https://www.rticcoolers.com/shop/drinkware/RTIC-Tumbler-30-oz

 

[TaylorPilot]

I have a Yeti 30 oz BTW. I love it. Literally, if I am not eating at a restaurant, it is the only cup I use. I really does hold ice for a full day. Doesn't hold smells, and the lid goes on super easy, but stays tight. It is really a great product. Should they lower their price because someone makes an identical product for half the price. Heck no. The perceived value of the Yeti brand is worth allot. It is like Prada. Would they lower their price because you can buy a purse at Target for 1/15th the price? No, they have their market and so does Target.

 

[ZoaReefer]

Check these out. Can't tell a difference in quality. Half the price. Yeti makes good ice coolers but they are crazy expensive. I consider it the same as buying designer clothes or purses. They quality is there, but 90% of it is the name. Before anyone says that Yeti innovated that, Coleman has been making double wall vacuum insulated stainless thermos since forever.

https://www.rticcoolers.com/shop/drinkware/RTIC-Tumbler-30-oz

Good find.
There's still people who will buy Yeti's, as you said, for the name. (not that it's not top notch quality, too).

A good example of value is Pacific Sun's SMT leds technology. I haven't found anyone that has copied that. You can't get that color combination, number of channels, etc, anywhere else in a COB type light because it's specific to our industry, while all the other lights use chinese diodes from much larger industries.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Built in obsolescense. A technique taught in industry. At what interval do we need the average customer to come back for another one. ( the interval is getting shorter by the minute)

Research in the industry says about two years or less.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Research in the industry says about two years or less.

Really?

I have always been told that the average person stays in this Hobby for 1 Year before Quitting.

Either Way So Sad.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Sure it is. Find something else to make or get into a new industry. Everybody and every company have to make these choices everyday. Don't get me wrong I'm not condoning it, but it's not going away. In fact it will get more and more cut throat when robots start building them and humans are out of the picture. 5 maybe 10 years if that and these factories will be cranking them out. And besides that when it breaks, you'll will print your spare parts with your 3D printer and fix it on the spot. Go look at some of the TED videos if you don't believe me. So yeah it's not that simple because the world is about to change again and we are not ready to deal with it. This is just a preview of what's about to happen with manufacturing.

I left the aquarium industry about 12 years ago to get into the residential and commercial construction trade fabricating counter tops in Quartz and Solid Surface products. The main reason was both a decline in sales and limited raw product (quality cell cast acrylic) for the aquariums, stands, and filters we fabricated and distributed to the LFS in five states. I miss my friends that owned stores that since have gone out of business. I miss the industry. I do not miss the low margins, long nights, and the resulting inability to retain employees and pay my bills. We made an excellent product and many of our customers continued to call for years after to see if we would return to the industry. I am looking at a return to the industry and have made new contacts to that effect. It is a great hobby but not the best business.

 

[TheEngineer]

What was the driver of the low margins for you? Cheap glass tanks?

 

[Brandon Donaldson]

E="that Reef Guy, post: 2668217, member: 24159"]I didn't see anybody bashing you or anybody else for not having expensive pumps?

This post has me confused?[/QUOTE]
Thats not how I ment it I'm not geting bashed personally I'm saying people who donot have the budget to buy the really nice things or buy full colonies instead of a bunch of frags get bashed for it there several post in this thread and several threads about that subject