Are pride and hard work dead?

[TheEngineer]

As the title suggests, have we come so far as a group of hobbyists that we accept the flagrant duplication of hard work that is done by those dedicated to providing us new and innovative technologies? So long as there are products to be sold there will be knockoffs, but why do we as a group enable these endeavors to be profitable?

A recent discussion surrounded Jebao's Jecod gyre pump and just now I saw a new post for a Kelo DM light which clearly copies Kessil's work.

We always profess that we are responsible stewards of the pieces of the ocean we look after and that we should be afforded the right for our hobby to continue to draw from our oceans. Why then do we allow this type of activity to continue unimpeded? Why don't we as a group stand up against these types of profiteering?

 

[CastAway]

Business is business, I guess. But, I too have a certain distain for profiteering in this hobby, be it licensed garage level fish & frag hustlers who hurt local brick & mortar retail stores, or manufacturers who knock off their competitors products, or snake oil salesmanship. There's no Reef Consumer Protection Agency unfortunately. The closest thing may be our local reef clubs where advertising dollars do not temper the candor or consensus.

 

[TheEngineer]

Well said! I agree we as a collective should be more proactive at pushing back against these copycats.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

yup. business. Captain America was made in Canada. Superman in Australia. Amazon sells stuff for the tank at less than wholesale that my friends LFS can buy it at.
What can you do. Its become the American culture of the free market.

 

[CastAway]

A collective in the form of an objective "R2R Reef Hobbyist Endorsement", say a 2/3 majority vote by all registered R2R members and non-sponsors over a set review period. Yeah......

 

[TheEngineer]

yup. business. Captain America was made in Canada. Superman in Australia. Amazon sells stuff for the tank at less than wholesale that my friends LFS can buy it at.
What can you do. Its become the American culture of the free market.

Amazon has been known to sell at a loss when they are trying to get into a market. I always buy from my local store for that kind of stuff. Even if it is a few dollars more.

 

[TheEngineer]

A collective in the form of an objective "R2R Reef Hobbyist Endorsement", say a 2/3 majority vote by all registered R2R members and non-sponsors over a set review period. Yeah......

I love that idea. Rev mentioned a drive for naming top products a few months ago. A R2R seal of approval sounds like an awesome idea. Kinda like Good Housekeeping

 

[CastAway]

I love that idea. Rev mentioned a drive for naming top products a few months ago. A R2R seal of approval sounds like an awesome idea. Kinda like Good Housekeeping

My thought exactly, a "Seal of Good Reef Keeping Approval". Ought to be pretty easy with the right set of objectives and criteria.

 

[runzwithscissors]

Mmmm.....Henry Ford made the first car. People copied him. IMHO other people who make a similar product reduces the costs for all of us.

 

[TheEngineer]

Mmmm.....Henry Ford made the first car. People copied him. IMHO other people who make a similar product reduces the costs for all of us.

Others built upon his works. I don't think you'll find a Model T copycat built by Dodge. Improvements are one thing, copies are quite another.

 

[runzwithscissors]

The true profiteering comes when only one company can make the product. Ergo will charge the max the market can bear.

 

[CastAway]

So there can be a quality rating and a cost rating. There are products out there that truly exploit us as consumers. Maybe it should be the reefing Lemon Award, and this is where the trouble starts.

 

[ddrueckh]

Almost everything in our hobby is a knockoff. There are many brands of aquariums, skimmers, return pumps, heaters, chemicals...all thought up by one company and duplicated by others. Even ECOTHECH took something invented by others (powerheads), tweaked it a little and sold it as their own. I would say that they have no more right to make an MP40 than Jebao has to make their own version of a powerhead.

 

[kschweer]

I wouldn't just say this in regaurds to products and this hobby. It seems like this is everyday life. When it's the busy season at my job we bring on a few guys for temporary work. #1 it's very hard to find someone and #2 it's very hard to find someone who works well and takes pride in what they do. Every wants a job but no one wants to work. The pay is pretty good and it's a great job for someone on summer vacation from school, it doesn't make sense to me. Sorry to be off topic but I think it makes sense in the scheme of things. Everyone wants everything done for them and wonders why younger people these days seem entitled. How can they not be when everyone has a cleaning lady, a lawn service company and 90% of people can't change the oil in there car? This post may make me seem old (exactly what I thought when re-reading it lol) but I'm not really. I guess I look at things differently than most my age.

 

[Sabellafella]

Are pride and hard work dead? I dont even kno where to begin with this hobby, some people ben here for over 20 30 years and understand were im comming from. This hobby was completely different 8 years ago were i prob never payed more then 40 bucks for a nice colony of anything plus we would trade frags just incase something happened no matter what it was op or 500$ efflo or w.e, now people pay 20 dollars for a mariculture that they sell for 400$ for a pinky nail is what took my pride and dignity out of this hobby, all of us worked and busted our behinds to grt were we are now and some still struggling, some manufactures go threw years of research to get where they are now but no matter what company theyve all ben ripping eachother off with designs and innovation but thats just how life works, if its cheaper and reliable to me ill take it regardless the limit of to what these company take it to, they all compete with eachother

 

[Macdaddynick1]

As the title suggests, have we come so far as a group of hobbyists that we accept the flagrant duplication of hard work that is done by those dedicated to providing us new and innovative technologies? So long as there are products to be sold there will be knockoffs, but why do we as a group enable these endeavors to be profitable?

A recent discussion surrounded Jebao's Jecod gyre pump and just now I saw a new post for a Kelo DM light which clearly copies Kessil's work.

We always profess that we are responsible stewards of the pieces of the ocean we look after and that we should be afforded the right for our hobby to continue to draw from our oceans. Why then do we allow this type of activity to continue unimpeded? Why don't we as a group stand up against these types of profiteering?

Though this sounds like a noble call to action, I believe your claim overlooks a lot of facts. 1) it is a free market, and a brand loyalty is a choice not a requirement. 2) copying is not as bad as you set it out to be, the phone/computer you're using has most likely copied an idea from another phone/computer, though it's not as apparent to the naked eye as a pump, companies like Apple and Microsoft infringe each-others patents constantly. ( ex. A holds the patent for a home button, B infringes , rather than suing A uses B's patent for a lock button, B doesn't sue because it also infringes) that being said , the whole point I'm trying to make is big and innovative companies also copy each-other. 3) protectionist mentality stagnates the R&D in a way( ex companies get lazy and release variations of the same product over and over). 4) a pump is a pump companies copied the general concept of a water pump from previously existing inventions, they've added some bells and whistles to it which were later copied by the Chinese companies like jebao. And now that many people have used the cheaper alternatives like jebao, that cost less and works almost the same, not a lot of us are willing to pay more for a Ferrari of a pump that does essentially the same thing. 5) True many brand pumps last longer and look nicer, but not everyone is able to afford to spend a 300+ dollars for a goodwill, brand loyalty, and the looks. 6) I doubt a coral tell the difference between an MP40 on one side of my tank and rw15 on another . I know plenty of people with the top of the line equipment that kill corals like it's their job. 7) companies eighths cheaper equipment enable us to provide our corals with the same conditions that otherwise wouldn't be accessible to the average consumer. Now a guy that just started doesn't have to drop 200 on a pump that makes waves to keep detritus from forming, or 500 for a skimmer to keep his water clean. I believe our loyalty should lie to our corals and jebao gives access to the equipment that allows more people to provide better environment for their corals. That is a good thing in my book. 8) We would have to look at the patent claims in order to determine if just how much did those Chinese companies copied . ( ex what does a company A really have a patent on? Is it the propeller that spins around in circle? Or is it the fact that the speed is adjustable? Or is it the fact that the pump can be wirelessly controlled? ( I mean that sounds like the attributes of a few of the big brand pumps I could think of , and no one is blaming them for being copy cats).

This is just my opinion, I apologize if I come off as a little rude in the way I say things. I assure you that was not my intention it's just the best way I know how to express it.

 

[cmcoker]

I won't ever own a mp40, a Maxspect gyre, etc. Not because I don't want one, but because I want to stay married.

I can not justify to my SO the high cost of these products, even used because if theyre used they would have to be almost free for me to justify the cost.

I can justify the Jebao products price, it's a new product, has some warranty support and the features I want.

In my case, and I'm sure many others, these knockoffs aren't hurting ecotech or maxspect. They are hurting Hydor, as I used Korallias before the wp series pumps, and I'm sure that's what would be in my tank.

For that matter, what do you think buying these pumps used does for ecotech or tunze or whatever, nothing.. so should the forums not allow the used products to be sold? Should everyone throw away their old pumps when they upgrade?

I appreciate the advances these companies have made, and I think if you can afford it, great, please support them. But many people are not able for whatever reason. some of us can only afford the volkswagen, not the BMW no matter our tastes.

 

[eliramos]

I won't ever own a mp40, a Maxspect gyre, etc. Not because I don't want one, but because I want to stay married.

I can not justify to my SO the high cost of these products, even used because if theyre used they would have to be almost free for me to justify the cost.

I can justify the Jebao products price, it's a new product, has some warranty support and the features I want.

In my case, and I'm sure many others, these knockoffs aren't hurting ecotech or maxspect. They are hurting Hydor, as I used Korallias before the wp series pumps, and I'm sure that's what would be in my tank.

For that matter, what do you think buying these pumps used does for ecotech or tunze or whatever, nothing.. so should the forums not allow the used products to be sold? Should everyone throw away their old pumps when they upgrade?

I appreciate the advances these companies have made, and I think if you can afford it, great, please support them. But many people are not able for whatever reason. some of us can only afford the volkswagen, not the BMW no matter our tastes.

Well said!

 

[acesfull44]

This is my issue with professional sports! As long as there are people who keep paying the higher ticket prices, and the owners keep getting more funds to line their pockets from TV deals, advertising, tickets, concessions, etc it will never end. If reefers continue to by the newest and best pumps, lighting, sumps, tanks, skimmers, controllers, equipment, corals, fish, etc, then the vendors/sellers/companies will continue to profit and charge what the market will bear and what people will continue to be willing to pay for it. This is the value of supply and demand, and to a certain degree a downfall to our society IMO, similar to the stock market! Unfortunately our society has rapidly been moving to the bigger/faster/better version of whatever it is, and the "what have you done for me lately" mentality and it does not look like that will change in the near future. All we can do is control what we can control, so if you cannot afford the "name brand" version of whatever your buying, then you will have to make efforts to use a product that suits your needs AND your pocketbook. I am new to this hobby for the most part, and have already invested WAY more than I anticipated at the beginning, I am vulnerable to this theory of the newest/brightest/best colony/frag of corals mainly, as I want my tank to be the brightest of colors and the nicest of stuff I can have, however I have already regreted some decisions where as I fell into the trap of buying or getting something that seems to be the hottest or best thing, when in reality I probably could have gone without, or went in a different direction. Having said all of that, I am going to continue to move forward, as most of us will I assume, good bad or indifferent, and try to learn as best I can from all the things I have done in this hobby and in life to make out as best I can! Love this thread and the topic, and look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and opinions on this!

 

[Diesel]

December 24, 2015
SENT VIA EMAIL ONLY
Re: U.S. Patent Application Publication No. 2015/0292507 A1
Title: CROSS-FLOW WAVE MAKING PUMP
By: Guangzhou Maiguang Electronic Science Technology Co., Ltd., d.b.a. Maxspect
Sheridan Law Ref. 81151.0001
Dear Sirs:
Guangzhou Maiguang Electronic Science Technology Co., Ltd., d.b.a. Maxspect (hereinafter “Maxspect”) is the owner of a utility patent application, which includes claim coverage directed to a cross-flow wave making pump. As a reference, enclosed is U.S. Patent Application Publication No. US 2015/0292507 A1.

I note from two articles in ReefBuilders.com that industry intelligence indicates that Jebao Co., Ltd. or related entities have designed and may offer a Jecod CP-45, a Jecod CP-25, or other related equipment which is described and illustrated as a “Cross-Flow Wave Pump”. As a reference, enclosed are copies of the two articles as well as a portion of the website at the aboveidentified URL. This equipment may ultimately infringe one or more claims of the pending patent application of the above-identified U.S. patent application publication. Under the provisional rights provisions added to the Patent Act in 1999, a claimant can recover damages (after the patent issues) if it gives notice to the target of the claims after the pending application is published. See, 35 USC 154(d).

At this time, Maxspect would be pleased to discuss various options to provide you with the ability to avoid liability for infringement under provisional rights provisions related to the above-identified patent application. If you are of the opinion that you do not need to take any action at this time with Maxspect, it would be helpful if you could give us some insight into your reasons. Infringement may occur through making, using, or selling a product in conflict with the claims of the above-identified patent application publication. Maxspect may elect to seek damages from one or both of sellers or manufacturers of infringing products.

Please contact me at your earliest convenience to address this matter.

Sincerely,

James A. Sheridan Sheridan Law LLC


If I was Maxspect, Tunze or Ecotech I would go a step further and if a qualified Dealer from either Maxspect, Tunze or Ecotech sells the knockoffs they should be dropped as a dealer of their products.
Jeabo can bring their own product on the market but if they do so not a whole lot of ppl would buy them.