Breaking the "Rules" - Non-standard and innovative practices...

robert · Nov 28, 2015

"I draw the line are those folks who put a big fish in a small pond, and say the fish is happy..."

That pretty much describes every tank.
The same logic can be used to condem the entire hobby...

Why is 180 gallons the limit - why not 300?
Maybe hippos shouldn't be kept at all.

Its a slippery slope...A worthy topic for ethical debate...there are many such controversies...but take caution in your zealotry...
http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/34571/san-francisco-bans-goldfish/

"Tank gallonage vs tank dimenstion in the keeping of tangs" - could be a "Breaking the Rules" type topic, but you should be prepared with something more than a "Potter Stewart" defense for your position.

mcarroll · Jan 12, 2016

In general, I'm quite comfortable with the 6-foot rule for tangs because it's simple: Get a six-foot tank or don't get any tangs.

One of the few things we know about Tang behavior is that they cruise miles of reef every day. Miles.

If you try to give that fish anything less than six feet, you're pulling off a stunt - not being a good fish keeper! It does no good conflating those two things any more than they already are.

BTW, you can think of "six feet" in terms of surface area if you're thinking of non-standard tank shapes. At least eight square feet of tank surface! Twelve+ would be an even better target, but I'm not trying to be a zealot...just un-cruel. (I don't think you'll find a six foot tank with less than eight sq ft of surface, so I'm taking that as an assumption.)

We Need To Do Better
I worry if we can't do a better job of "drawing the line" on our own (as a hobby) that we may also find ourselves legislated out of the hobby just like the story in that "aliens are here!" rag you quoted.

Wild-caught fish already suffer massive casualties before ever arriving at the fish store. This is a sad enough state of affairs that you'd think the remaining fish would be treasured and pampered! Um, no...

If we continue to take the remaining 5%-10% that survive to be healthy selections at the LFS, take them home to our tanks and kill 99% of them before they are even 10 years old (I bet 80%+ before 1 year), we should expect it to happen sooner or later. Hopefully before something like "fishery collapse" dictates it first.

A tank too-small is the base reason for a significant number of these deaths.

The longer people argue in favor of (e.g.) tangs in three- and four-foot tanks, the more likely this outcome IMO.

P.S. Great thread! For a hobby that regards itself as pretty progressive, and in some ways really is, there's a serious dogmatic streak running through it!! Even here on R2R!

Lowstorm · Jan 12, 2016

brandon429 said:
Another sub thread off this one

Things from Home Depot you can put in your reef

Can someone build a reef using parts only from Home Depot aside from rocks and corals and fish

Without being able to get lights from elsewhere, no. I mean just bulbs, you can get the hardware there!

I know, I did this.

Edited to expand:

What do you need for a fish tank.

Well, the tank. (Okay, I bought that used elsewhere)
Stand: home depot carries wood!
Top: Home depot-carries wood!
Lights: Home depot carries everything you need to set up a metal halide. It takes a bit of digging, and possibly ordering some parts, totally do-able. (I 'cheated' and bought used, but same concept-it was put together using home depot stuff, dirt cheap)
overflow: yup! And plumbing!
Sump: yup! If you don't mind going plastic.
Strip power, use timers-all can be bought there.
Wait, need to buy the heater elsewhere... and pumps.. bet they have things you CAN use though

thenanoreef · Jan 12, 2016

Lowstorm said:
Without being able to get lights from elsewhere, no. I mean just bulbs, you can get the hardware there!

I know, I did this.

Edited to expand:

What do you need for a fish tank.

Well, the tank. (Okay, I bought that used elsewhere)
Stand: home depot carries wood!
Top: Home depot-carries wood!
Lights: Home depot carries everything you need to set up a metal halide. It takes a bit of digging, and possibly ordering some parts, totally do-able. (I 'cheated' and bought used, but same concept-it was put together using home depot stuff, dirt cheap)
overflow: yup! And plumbing!
Sump: yup! If you don't mind going plastic.
Strip power, use timers-all can be bought there.
Wait, need to buy the heater elsewhere... and pumps.. bet they have things you CAN use though

Pump for sure!!! they have lots of pond/fountain pumps

Coralacan · Jan 12, 2016

mcarroll said:
In general, I'm quite comfortable with the 6-foot rule for tangs because it's simple: Get a six-foot tank or don't get any tangs.

One of the few things we know about Tang behavior is that they cruise miles of reef every day. Miles.

If you try to give that fish anything less than six feet, you're pulling off a stunt - not being a good fish keeper! It does no good conflating those two things any more than they already are.

BTW, you can think of "six feet" in terms of surface area if you're thinking of non-standard tank shapes. At least eight square feet of tank surface! Twelve+ would be an even better target, but I'm not trying to be a zealot...just un-cruel. (I don't think you'll find a six foot tank with less than eight sq ft of surface, so I'm taking that as an assumption.)

We Need To Do Better
I worry if we can't do a better job of "drawing the line" on our own (as a hobby) that we may also find ourselves legislated out of the hobby just like the story in that "aliens are here!" rag you quoted.

Wild-caught fish already suffer massive casualties before ever arriving at the fish store. This is a sad enough state of affairs that you'd think the remaining fish would be treasured and pampered! Um, no...

If we continue to take the remaining 5%-10% that survive to be healthy selections at the LFS, take them home to our tanks and kill 99% of them before they are even 10 years old (I bet 80%+ before 1 year), we should expect it to happen sooner or later. Hopefully before something like "fishery collapse" dictates it first.

A tank too-small is the base reason for a significant number of these deaths.

The longer people argue in favor of (e.g.) tangs in three- and four-foot tanks, the more likely this outcome IMO.

P.S. Great thread! For a hobby that regards itself as pretty progressive, and in some ways really is, there's a serious dogmatic streak running through it!! Even here on R2R!

Sorry but I had 3 tangs in a 90 for over 20 years. My purple tang was happy for over 11 years until my power went out and he and his 8 year old blonde tasco tang died. My 4 year old hippo tang made it!
P.S. I didn't do a water change until power went out also.

Coralacan · Jan 12, 2016

Water changes are also a scam. I started salt water in 1985 and no now **** so I went free style . I have no problems with most corals. Sure some won't work but 90 present will.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jan 12, 2016

Coralacan said:
Water changes are also a scam. I started salt water in 1985 and no now **** so I went free style . I have no problems with most corals. Sure some won't work but 90 present will.

A scam? Unless someone tells you it is a must have, I'm not sure how it is a scam.

For example, suggesting what might be improved due to using water changes isn't a scam (in some cases it is simple math).

You might choose to not use them, and perhaps in your specific case your tank might not be any better with them. But that isn't the case for everyone.

Newb73 · Jan 12, 2016

I dont know if this qualifies or not but....my corals do better in low light. Anything above about 45% on my Hydras and sps lose color.

Tangs- IMO its more about behavior and territory. My 3 tangs like to graze but if they see another grazing. ..even 6 feet away, they all rush over to see and graze in the same spot...this results in annoyed tangs fighting.

The non standard things id like to hear grom real users the most are ozone users, denitrifier users, and people who connect tanks all over their homes with water bridges.

Lowstorm · Jan 12, 2016

thenanoreef said:
Pump for sure!!! they have lots of pond/fountain pumps

I forgot about that. Doh~! I bet they have some nice strong ones for that...

Newb73 · Jan 12, 2016

Lowstorm said:
I forgot about that. Doh~! I bet they have some nice strong ones for that...

I used home depot to water proof my stand and install a self priming sunk pump in there....activated by an apex via a break out box float switch.

tonkaoz · Jan 12, 2016

I wonder if the tang police are gonna flip out when i tell my next plan . So i just bought a 400 gallon tank and plan on putting in at least 3 powder blues 3 purple tangs and 3 blonde naso's . The tank is 8" long and 3" wide . I just like schooling fish and plan on getting small ones and putting them all in at the same time . Hopefully i will have no problems . Probably 6 month to a year away still

brandon429 · Jan 12, 2016

Newb your post was helpful. I'm acclimating a tiny one gallon tank under a kessil 160 tuna blue and your list reminds me keeping it dimmer for a while can't hurt. A kessil for a one gallon is non standard.

mcarroll · Jan 12, 2016

Sounds like a daredevil plan mostly because of the multiples...but starting with a 400 gallon tank, you're miles ahead of where most would start on that project!

Schooling marine fish are no joke; success isn't guaranteed even in that large a tank.

Will see how things end up after a year of thinking about it - you've got lots of time to prepare! I hope it goes off without a hitch!!!

Coralacan · Jan 12, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
A scam? Unless someone tells you it is a must have, I'm not sure how it is a scam.

For example, suggesting what might be improved due to using water changes isn't a scam (in some cases it is simple math).

You might choose to not use them, and perhaps in your specific case your tank might not be any better with them. But that isn't the case for everyone.

I simply stated what I've learned over many years. Since 1985 I've only done water changes when my power went out. I have a generator now so I should never have to again.

PDR · Jan 13, 2016

I'm sorry but I've heard the "tangs swim MILES a day in the ocean so you better make sure they are in a 6ft tank!" Argument so many times and frankly it just sounds so stupid to me, I mean how on earth is a 6ft tank going to make all the difference (vs 4ft) for a fish that swims "miles"?

Don't get me wrong, I think tangs do need large tanks, but I also think some of the smaller tangs are fine in a 4ft tank if their larger cousins are fine in a 6.

watchguy123 · Jan 13, 2016

I love the idea of evaluating and/or trying new concepts. I also would like to know why any of it works or at least why we think it works.

The crazy thing is there are a lot of crazy reefers who advocate new ideas without actually demonstrating success. It can be difficult to get past whacky guys who insist they are right and have seen the light. But they never show their tank or actual success.

Bottomline, it's good to question the old and tried as well as the new and different.

FranklinDattein · Jan 13, 2016

Start reefing as an unemployed student and the unconventional becomes the rule

Experimenting, learning and DIY is half of the fun for me, but whenever I try the untried, I end up either killing something or spending twice the money. Still heaps of fun.

My most unconventional one was to build a controller instead of buying one. It cost me so far more than 50 Apex

mattcoug · Jan 13, 2016

fsamir said:
Start reefing as an unemployed student and the unconventional becomes the rule

Experimenting, learning and DIY is half of the fun for me, but whenever I try the untried, I end up either killing something or spending twice the money. Still heaps of fun.

My most unconventional one was to build a controller instead of buying one. It cost me so far more than 50 Apex

That's an expensive controller.

Bryce Peterson · Jan 13, 2016

I always find myself drawn to the unconventional. I saw Tyree's interview about "cryptic zones" and wanted to run out and buy some more sponges. I constantly have to check myself and realize that I am too much of a newbie to do anything risky with my considerable investment. That being said, I have the utmost respect for those who dare. Without you, the hobby would not be where it is today.