Dissolved Organic Carbon and Coral Disease

[Mattrg02]

One of my concerns with these is that people seem to think they contain species that can do all kinds of different things, from nitrifying to denitrifying to consuming whatever organic they may be dosing. That seems a lot to ask from a single product, even if they are alive.

Seems to me, we just need them to consume carbon, no?

 

[twilliard]

There may be a simple way to measure bacterial load and DOC using methelene blue. Its along the lines of the "milk quality" experiment done in middle school. I've been fiddling with it but it still isn't right and not calibrated.

It relies on bacterial consumption of oxygen causing methelyne blue to go clear and timing how long that takes.
If your out of any of the three N/P or C it should take monger or it won't change at all.

I have high N (very high N) and unknown P - and the water sits blue indefinately.
If I add C it should fade after a few hours to a day as the aerobic bacteria consume oxygen...it does but not enough.

It could be a neat experiment to run as a community if the protocol were set.

Hi Robert!
About this post it closely follows what I do with a standard ph test.
Same principal and theory.
I run a ph test daily but not to see what my ph is.
In a given amount of time the test will turn yellow from its original purple (Elos ph)
I take this time to determine .. well bacteria, organics, fish waste volume in my tank.
My average color shift is 8-10 hours
When if falls bellow this under 8 hours I change my carbon and up the skimmer a tad.
In 48 hours my color shift is back within the 8-10 hour mark

Here is this morning load test

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Seems to me, we just need them to consume carbon, no?

Presumably you want them to be able to consume whatever carbon is in your water, if that is a goal. Not all bacteria consume all organics. Some, such as vinegar (acetate), will have many species that consume it. More complex organics, such as coral slimes, may require more specialized bacteria. Nitrifying bacteria in general are not organic carbon consumers, and that seems like the market that many of the products are aimed at: speeding the nitrogen cycling of a tank.

 

[Mattrg02]

Presumably you want them to be able to consume whatever carbon is in your water, if that is a goal. Not all bacteria consume all organics. Some, such as vinegar (acetate), will have many species that consume it. More complex organics, such as coral slimes, may require more specialized bacteria. Nitrifying bacteria in general are not organic carbon consumers, and that seems like the market that many of the products are aimed at: speeding the nitrogen cycling of a tank.

I read that brightwell makes an add on product for nicrobacter7 that is essentially a carbon source. If this is the case, would it be safe to assume that MB7 is a carbon consuming bacteria rather than nitrifying?

Are there any known products on the market proven to consume DOC?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

MB7 claims to do just about everything which must require a number of different species:

"Complex system of non-pathogenic aerobic and anaerobic microbes, as well as natural
enzymes, specifically formulated to establish biological filtration in new aquarium set-ups,
and to enhance the rate of nitrification, denitrification, and organic waste degradation in
marine and freshwater aquaria through complete nutrient remineralization"

And perhaps it does, but I am not sure, as you note, what is actually alive and what it actually accomplishes from this list. If they supply a carbon source, it is hopefully one they've used to grow these bacteria, but there's no way to know if they do not specify.

 

[Mattrg02]

MB7 claims to do just about everything which must require a number of different species:

"Complex system of non-pathogenic aerobic and anaerobic microbes, as well as natural
enzymes, specifically formulated to establish biological filtration in new aquarium set-ups,
and to enhance the rate of nitrification, denitrification, and organic waste degradation in
marine and freshwater aquaria through complete nutrient remineralization"

And perhaps it does, but I am not sure, as you note, what is actually alive and what it actually accomplishes from this list. If they supply a carbon source, it is hopefully one they've used to grow these bacteria, but there's no way to know if they do not specify.

I'll give it a try for a few weeks and see if I see a change in anything. My water is already pretty clear, but I do get a buildup in my glass every few days.

I just have to make sure my nitrates stay up there.

 

[SB Reef Lights]

And I was just about to start carbon dosing. Now I have second thoughts. lol.

I have run elevated ALK levels along with high nutrients for years and always experienced faster growth rates than in my low nutrient tanks. I was going to run a 40B on Vit-C and another on Vodka just to test things before switching over the larger tanks. Currently the only RTN or STN I have experienced with high nutrient levels over the last few years have been due to pests.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Well, back to my microbacter7 it is!

You know, the other thread OP is referring to is one I started. I was dosing MB7 for maybe two months and then I stopped because I didn't think I needed it. My SPS started peeling and turning white a week or two after I stopped...hmmm

 

[Breakthecycle2]

I'll give it a try for a few weeks and see if I see a change in anything. My water is already pretty clear, but I do get a buildup in my glass every few days.

I just have to make sure my nitrates stay up there.

What kind of buildup are you getting? I have noticed a whiteish film on the glass too.

 

[Mattrg02]

You know, the other thread OP is referring to is one I started. I was dosing MB7 for maybe two months and then I stopped because I didn't think I needed it. My SPS started peeling and turning white a week or two after I stopped...hmmm

That's suspicious. I think that my issues coincided with stopping mb7 as well.

 

[Mattrg02]

What kind of buildup are you getting? I have noticed a whiteish film on the glass too.

It's a whitish film that turns light brown. I believe it's bacteria that some algae clings to.

 

[Mattrg02]

And I was just about to start carbon dosing. Now I have second thoughts. lol.

I have run elevated ALK levels along with high nutrients for years and always experienced faster growth rates than in my low nutrient tanks. I was going to run a 40B on Vit-C and another on Vodka just to test things before switching over the larger tanks. Currently the only RTN or STN I have experienced with high nutrient levels over the last few years have been due to pests.

Can you post your nitrate and phosphate levels along with alkalinity dkh values?

 

[Breakthecycle2]

It's a whitish film that turns light brown. I believe it's bacteria that some algae clings to.

What is it? I can't figure it out, although it looks the same as when I used to dose CA or ALK.

 

[Mattrg02]

What is it? I can't figure it out, although it looks the same as when I used to dose CA or ALK.

Not sure, but I believe it's bacteria that eventually gives a spot for algae to adhere to. Everyone has it from my understanding.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Not sure, but I believe it's bacteria that eventually gives a spot for algae to adhere to. Everyone has it from my understanding.

You know, I also noticed some brown algae/film on top of it, which is weird because my tank is fishless right now for a few months.

 

[Mattrg02]

You know, I also noticed some brown algae/film on top of it, which is weird because my tank is fishless right now for a few months.

Algae/life, always finds a way ;-)

 

[robert]

FWIW, while I think it is a fine hypothesis that dissolved carbon may be a problem in some reefs, I do not think it is clear that general DOC's have caused an issue in typical aquaria (except cyanobacteria, which is very likely).

From a reef2reef forum member with STN and who is dosing sugar.

"Thank you. What about BioPlete do you think it may cause such problems too?"
see thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-new-sps-become-thin.211888/

Randy have you seen the study refrenced in my post below? Do you not beleive that this data suggests otherwise?

First the sugar, here's the data. You decide. Note while everything is labled mM they meant microM and issued a correction.

Biopellets would be a better choice, however it will raise DOC unless skimmed very effectively.
What should DOC levels be? Again data speaks for itself:

I'm not a fan of carbon based solutions - I even have reservations with respect to macro-algae unless very well cultured.

My solution is shown here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-sulphur-denitrator.211365/

 

[robert]

Hi Robert!
About this post it closely follows what I do with a standard ph test.
Same principal and theory.
I run a ph test daily but not to see what my ph is.
In a given amount of time the test will turn yellow from its original purple (Elos ph)
I take this time to determine .. well bacteria, organics, fish waste volume in my tank.
My average color shift is 8-10 hours
When if falls bellow this under 8 hours I change my carbon and up the skimmer a tad.
In 48 hours my color shift is back within the 8-10 hour mark

Here is this morning load test

I never realized that this was a function of Carbon load - any idea how this works?

Oh and by the way...in another post of yours you mentioned how you used smell to help determine the status of your tank...you never see it mentioned but its one of the best tests going away...nobody ever mentions it.

 

[twilliard]

Since I retired last April I have spent a lot of time looking at the whole picture of my tank.
Smell to me equals either massive amounts of bacteria releasing that swamp smell or just massive amounts of organics.
I swear I can see negative coral reaction with these high amounts or I just might have too much time on my hands.
Ya also I have been doing this PH thing for quite some time.
In my theory the amount of carbons, organics and bacteria break down in the ph test and drops the ph to that yellow.
I keep a "control" test from my new salt water and it never changes color. So this is how I correlated load.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Robert, I asked in your other thread about the details of that blue chart since it isn't clear what they did over 30 days. Continuously maintaining those organic concentrations at that level might require effective doses higher than any typical reefer uses with organic carbon dosing, and apparently dropping the dose a bit brings it back in line with their controls.

That said, I do not recommend that people use sugars.