DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One common theme I think I'm seeing, people are correlating their increase in alkalinity consumption with a net positive effect on coral growth. While I certainly see the obvious reason why one might reach that idea, does the above suggest this correlation might be misplaced? Is it possible the increase in alk consumption is a result of processing the ammonia as stated above?

If so, for those of us that employ a one-part solution for supplementing alkalinity and calcium (i.e. all for reef or kalkwasser), would/could this increase in alk consumption throw off the "balanced formula" and exacerbate an imbalance of the two compounds? Likewise, I could see one potentially employing this to correct an existing imbalance as well. If a one-part dosing method produced too much alkalinity, this could be tuned to bring that down alleviating the requirement for supplemental alkalinity dosing.

As noted in post 1, ammonium chloride depletes alk and ammonium bicarbonate is net alk neutral.

 

[Skep18]

As noted in post 1, ammonium chloride depletes alk and ammonium bicarbonate is net alk neutral.

Thank you for humoring me in all my questions. After posting, I did go back and reread that part. All this just feels very daunting for us uneducated. I took some chemistry in college but not enough to be fluent. Lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you for humoring me in all my questions. After posting, I did go back and reread that part. All this just feels very daunting for us uneducated. I took some chemistry in college but not enough to be fluent. Lol

Not a problem. That's why this forum is here.

 

[spsick]

6 month follow up here with an interesting observation.

Dosing ammonia has done well for my sps tank with only 4 fish. I’ve been dosing about 10ml daily of the ammonium bicarbonate solution.

I added a small school of 7 chromis, and figured with the addition I should shut off the ammonia dosing until things equalize. Tank has been very stable alk with my dosing really dialed in but since I shut off the ammonia a week ago all has climbed 1.5dkh. Seems the corals have really taken to preferring the ammonia! Nitrate being stable around 15 and phos around .05 so no notable change in nutrients or anything else.

 

[Skep18]

6 month follow up here with an interesting observation.

Dosing ammonia has done well for my sps tank with only 4 fish. I’ve been dosing about 10ml daily of the ammonium bicarbonate solution.

I added a small school of 7 chromis, and figured with the addition I should shut off the ammonia dosing until things equalize. Tank has been very stable alk with my dosing really dialed in but since I shut off the ammonia a week ago all has climbed 1.5dkh. Seems the corals have really taken to preferring the ammonia! Nitrate being stable around 15 and phos around .05 so no notable change in nutrients or anything else.

Wow.. That is very compelling feedback I'd say.

 

[East1]

I've been running Ammonium Chloride now since March 10th, just over 2 weeks.
Since switching from dosing Nitrate, which at the time I was under-dosing at 1ppm per litre per day, due to a mishap pushing my nitrates higher than I'd like. I switched to Ammonium Chloride and set the dosing amount to be approximately the same, and have slowly worked it back to where I was with Nitrate dosing (about 6.5ppm per litre per day)

Considering I rarely if ever feed the tank and it runs on inputs of chemicals, the change was extremely stark - clumps of hair algae and film algaes on the tank died back, cyanobacteria died back very very heavily and the overall coral health (evidenced by polyp extension, growth and thickness of coenosarc) improved drastically.

In terms of actual observations, LPS that wouldn't inflate are now fully expanded, SPS that showed minimal polyp expansion now show very strong expansion and the apical polyps are very extended. Some leather corals that had slimed over and were hunched up are opened up and have looked better than ever. These are corals that have been in the tank for over a year in some instances.

I don't do much husbandry (water changes are once every 6-8 months, I top off RO and attend to dosing solutions at best) so I don't attribute this to a placebo.

I've since removed some rocks and changed the tank around a little so this is no longer a case of only changing one viarable, but for the purposes of experimentation over the past weeks I'd say that corals strongly prefer ammonium compounds over nitrate for growth, and this has rammifications for the reef as a whole in terms of species of algaes etc.

This makes sense as some of the best coral tanks operate a high input high output model to minimise nitrate while increasing feeding, if you break that down to transients, it means these systems are basically geared to produce ammonia and then remove the byproducts from accumulation. This makes sense in the context of wild reefs too - where the majority of food is quickly eaten and subsequently excreted.
To me this echos the frequently repeated 'the best coral food is fish poop' and on a chemical level I'd go as far to say that the best coral food is transient ammonia (ie ammonia that doesn't linger for more than a short time in the water column.
Obviously I'm not commenting on phosphates in this, as the relative ambient concentration of PO4 has many further implications.

The difference between Nitrate and Ammonium fertilisation can be seen in botanical growth quite starkly and I suspect the same is at play here however slightly more complex as we have multiple orders of life (algaes, bacteria and coral) using the same nutrient sources. I've collected this excerpt from @Hans-Werner some time ago:

I would say I'm absolutely not going back to dosing nitrate and considering I've been experimenting for a dosing system that can provide, with as little interface as possible, all of the corals and inhabitants chemical requirements (including algal growth for food etc) that using ammonium as a cornerstone for this is necessary compared to nitrate.

I have seen my alk drop slightly but I suspect this is from the dosing and not necessarily increased growth, I had higher alk than I'd like due to the nitrate spike previously before this started.


Overall I'm really glad I found this thread, big shout out to @Randy Holmes-Farley for the idea and also the help in the thread.

 

[spsick]

Here’s what happened to my otherwise stable alk when I shut off the ammonia for a week. The peak is when I turned it back on. I confirmed these numbers daily via Salifert as well. I am a believer now that this has as much impact on calcification as raising pH.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The difference between Nitrate and Ammonium fertilisation can be seen in botanical growth quite starkly and I suspect the same is at play here however slightly more complex as we have multiple orders of life (algaes, bacteria and coral) using the same nutrient sources. I've collected this excerpt from @Hans-Werner some time ago:

I would say I'm absolutely not going back to dosing nitrate and considering I've been experimenting for a dosing system that can provide, with as little interface as possible, all of the corals and inhabitants chemical requirements (including algal growth for food etc) that using ammonium as a cornerstone for this is necessary compared to nitrate.

I have seen my alk drop slightly but I suspect this is from the dosing and not necessarily increased growth, I had higher alk than I'd like due to the nitrate spike previously before this started.


Overall I'm really glad I found this thread, big shout out to @Randy Holmes-Farley for the idea and also the help in the thread.

Thanks for the update that you and others are posting. It's very useful!

As to Hans-Werner's thoughts, it is certainly true that conversion of nitrate to ammonia raises pH on the spot, and that may be significant. However, it is not obvious that is a drawback for a calcifying coral that needs to be offsetting the drop in internal pH caused by calcification, and it takes energy to do that. Thus, whether the pH effect is important or not, and perhaps even in which direction (beneficial vs detrimental) may vary by the type of organisms using the nitrate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here’s what happened to my otherwise stable alk when I shut off the ammonia for a week. The peak is when I turned it back on. I confirmed these numbers daily via Salifert as well. I am a believer now that this has as much impact on calcification as raising pH.

What form of ammonia were you dosing?

 

[spsick]

What form of ammonia were you dosing?

Ammonium bicarbonate

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ammonium bicarbonate

OK, thanks.

 

[spsick]

OK, thanks.

No, thank you Randy for your ongoing contributions to our hobby!

 

[AutoBond]

Does ammonium bicarbonate powder expire? The food grade stuff has a best before date, but how long does it last for our purposes if properly stored?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does ammonium bicarbonate powder expire? The food grade stuff has a best before date, but how long does it last for our purposes if properly stored?

I would not worry about the expiration. I don't think anything bad will happen to it. It is just a combination of ammonia, water and CO2. It may slowly come back apart into those things, and some parts may come off to the air more readily than others, but nothing that will hurt a reef tank.

 

[805reeftank]

Just found this thread and want to make sure I’m doing this right. My tank is relatively new about 4 months old (mixed reef) and started with live sand and dry rock. I’m having a hard time keeping levels up phosphate read 0/.03 (Hanna) most of the time and nitrates 1-2ppm (Hanna). Having a bit of dinos on rock work but not on sand. Going to start dosing, picking up some sodium phosphate and Ammonium Bicarbonate. Is there a simple calculator on dosing? My over all water volume is about 50gals. @Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just found this thread and want to make sure I’m doing this right. My tank is relatively new about 4 months old (mixed reef) and started with live sand and dry rock. I’m having a hard time keeping levels up phosphate read 0/.03 (Hanna) most of the time and nitrates 1-2ppm (Hanna). Having a bit of dinos on rock work but not on sand. Going to start dosing, picking up some sodium phosphate and Ammonium Bicarbonate. Is there a simple calculator on dosing? My over all water volume is about 50gals. @Randy Holmes-Farley

For sodium phosphate, use this calculator and the entry for phosphate from potassium phosphate. Then expect to ultimately need to dose more since much will bind to rock and sand.

James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator

You would also use it for ammonia if you want.

Using the entry for ammonia from ammonium nitrate, as that is close enough.

 

[805reeftank]

For sodium phosphate, use this calculator and the entry for phosphate from potassium phosphate. Then expect to ultimately need to dose more since much will bind to rock and sand.

James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator

You would also use it for ammonia if you want.

Using the entry for ammonia from ammonium nitrate, as that is close enough.

Thanks for confirming I was wondering if that calculator would work. When dosing ammonium how long is the delay till it turns into nitrate for testing purposes?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for confirming I was wondering if that calculator would work. When dosing ammonium how long is the delay till it turns into nitrate for testing purposes?

It may never show up as nitrate if organisms consume it as ammonia, but I doubt much hangs around as ammonia for more than a few hours.

 

[805reeftank]

It may never show up as nitrate if organisms consume it as ammonia, but I doubt much hangs around as ammonia for more than a few hours.

So I would keep upping the dosage till it’s detectable? Which I should be able to see in a test kit let’s say in 6-12hrs

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So I would keep upping the dosage till it’s detectable? Which I should be able to see in a test kit let’s say in 6-12hrs

Yes, that seems appropriate.