Does Higher par mean you should run higher nutrients?

[Max93]

When I say high par, I mean 600-800 at the top of the tank and 300 on the sandbed

Lately, I’ve been noticing my acros are alive, growing, and I don’t have any pests. They’re super colorful, but the growth is slow, and the PE is meh but it’s consistently there. One exception, is my red planet colony that has MASSIVE pe. It’s getting hit directly by the edge of a 400w metal halide and heavy indirect mp60 flow at 80%. 750-800 par

However, all my other acros although alive and encrusting super slow.. seem to have a bright color but not quite a defined color. Take the Walt Disney for example - my frag is getting 800 par, just like the red planet at the top. But, it’s a super like/green yellow but no blue tips. Not fuzzy, PE is there all day just small.

My parameters:

Nitrates 28
Po4: .16
Sg 1.024 (raising it slowly to 1.026)
Alk 8.0-8.3 (maintained with kalk)
Calcium - 440
pH 8.1 -8.4
Mag 1420-1450
ICP tests done every 6 weeks in both RODI and tank. Trace elements manually dosed to bring up based on ICP testing.

I should say, my green slimer finally looks like it’s growing after 5.5 months in the tank. It gets about 400 par.

Maybe I’m just impatient, but I would still like to hear thoughts on this. Is there a guide or best practice for this? For example - 800 par you need 40 nitrates and .2 po4..

I added some pics, obviously the Disney pic is with an orange lens but that’s kind of how it reflects to the camera but to the eye it’s not as bright lime like that. Maybe 20% less bright than that but I can never grab a good pic of it. It’s encrusting, but I feel like my colors are off.

I should add - I dose nopox everyday to try and keep nitrates below 10 and po4 below .1 but obviously that’s out of whack right now and should come back to those levels in 2 weeks. But now that I’m here.. should I just let those nutrients go wild and see what happens?

 

[blaxsun]

I have nutrients, probably medium PAR - but my SPS grows like weeds (acros and montis, anyway).

 

[PeterC99]

Sounds like you are doing everything right. My only difference is pH 8.3 to 8.5 and 10% weekly water changes with high quantity salt. Walt Disney is an extremely slow growing acro compared to my others. Here’s mine after 2 years compared to my other Acros and montis that are 2 years and have been trimmed a couple of times.

 

[Dburr1014]

When I say high par, I mean 600-800 at the top of the tank and 300 on the sandbed

Lately, I’ve been noticing my acros are alive, growing, and I don’t have any pests. They’re super colorful, but the growth is slow, and the PE is meh but it’s consistently there. One exception, is my red planet colony that has MASSIVE pe. It’s getting hit directly by the edge of a 400w metal halide and heavy indirect mp60 flow at 80%. 750-800 par

However, all my other acros although alive and encrusting super slow.. seem to have a bright color but not quite a defined color. Take the Walt Disney for example - my frag is getting 800 par, just like the red planet at the top. But, it’s a super like/green yellow but no blue tips. Not fuzzy, PE is there all day just small.

My parameters:

Nitrates 28
Po4: .16
Sg 1.024 (raising it slowly to 1.026)
Alk 8.0-8.3 (maintained with kalk)
Calcium - 440
pH 8.1 -8.4
Mag 1420-1450
ICP tests done every 6 weeks in both RODI and tank. Trace elements manually dosed to bring up based on ICP testing.

I should say, my green slimer finally looks like it’s growing after 5.5 months in the tank. It gets about 400 par.

Maybe I’m just impatient, but I would still like to hear thoughts on this. Is there a guide or best practice for this? For example - 800 par you need 40 nitrates and .2 po4..

I added some pics, obviously the Disney pic is with an orange lens but that’s kind of how it reflects to the camera but to the eye it’s not as bright lime like that. Maybe 20% less bright than that but I can never grab a good pic of it. It’s encrusting, but I feel like my colors are off.

I should add - I dose nopox everyday to try and keep nitrates below 10 and po4 below .1 but obviously that’s out of whack right now and should come back to those levels in 2 weeks. But now that I’m here.. should I just let those nutrients go wild and see what happens?

To answer the question:
I don't think higher par equates to running higher nutrients. I think higher par will help/hurt certain colors of coral depending on what it is.
I do think higher alk does equate to running higher nutrients. At a dkh of 8, imo, is a sweet spot.

 

[386reeftrader]

I wouldn’t really follow tests and just watch what your corals are doing. Where/how did you get your par numbers?

How often are you changing water? Could be more of a trace issue if you’re not changing regularly. IMO I’d stop the nopox and feed quality foods. What else do you run for export?

 

[jda]

It is usually the opposite. Higher residual no3 and po4 reduce calcification. Period. In some corals, it might not be much, but in others, it can be huge. Given that no coral needs an excess of no3 to have nitrogen, nor more of a surplus of po4 to get phosphorous than say 1-3 ppb in the water, then the extra energy from the lights (sugar from the zoox) cannot be used well by organic tissue if calcification slowed down. This means that if the coral is not growing, then it is not up taking nitrogen and phosphorous, so the excess is just sitting there - if growing a little, then a little uptake. Nitrogen and Phosphorous are not needed in any decent amount for the corals just to function, mostly to build new organic tissue. You have to balance organic tissue growth and calcification if you want optimal growth.

Frags are always going to be slow. Don't judge anything on them.

All of this said, it might not be worth it to chase optimal growth. I can grow wall-to-wall colonies in 3 years from 1" frags with lower no3 and po4 and MH. This is not always fun. It means that I have to cut/break out colonies on the regular and it can really suck. Having fun and living with mediocre growth, as long as stuff is growing, might be a better plan for some. Also, have lower no3 and po4 means that coralline is a true pest - the stuff can cover my front glass in two weeks -the only good thing about this is that I get zone minutes from the work that it takes to scrape it off and you need a protein shake afterward.

 

[Max93]

Sounds like you are doing everything right. My only difference is pH 8.3 to 8.5 and 10% weekly water changes with high quantity salt. Walt Disney is an extremely slow growing acro compared to my others. Here’s mine after 2 years compared to my other Acros and montis that are 2 years and have been trimmed a couple of times.

Your Disney looks exactly like mine in person in terms of color and PE. Good to see this!

 

[Max93]

I wouldn’t really follow tests and just watch what your corals are doing. Where/how did you get your par numbers?

How often are you changing water? Could be more of a trace issue if you’re not changing regularly. IMO I’d stop the nopox and feed quality foods. What else do you run for export?

I don’t do water changes as I run moonshine on the tank. I just use a skimmer. My traces aren’t quite at the optimal levels just yet but we’re almost there.

I only feed rods and nori. If I don’t use nopox my nutrients go sky high. For par, measured using that device with the stick on it I can’t remember the name but the par meter from BRS. 300 par is my lowest directly under the light on sand bed. I keep euphyllia on the edges of the tank as those are 100 par sections.

 

[Max93]

It is usually the opposite. Higher residual no3 and po4 reduce calcification. Period. In some corals, it might not be much, but in others, it can be huge. Given that no coral needs an excess of no3 to have nitrogen, nor more of a surplus of po4 to get phosphorous than say 1-3 ppb in the water, then the extra energy from the lights (sugar from the zoox) cannot be used well by organic tissue if calcification slowed down. This means that if the coral is not growing, then it is not up taking nitrogen and phosphorous, so the excess is just sitting there - if growing a little, then a little uptake. Nitrogen and Phosphorous are not needed in any decent amount for the corals just to function, mostly to build new organic tissue. You have to balance organic tissue growth and calcification if you want optimal growth.

Frags are always going to be slow. Don't judge anything on them.

All of this said, it might not be worth it to chase optimal growth. I can grow wall-to-wall colonies in 3 years from 1" frags with lower no3 and po4 and MH. This is not always fun. It means that I have to cut/break out colonies on the regular and it can really suck. Having fun and living with mediocre growth, as long as stuff is growing, might be a better plan for some. Also, have lower no3 and po4 means that coralline is a true pest - the stuff can cover my front glass in two weeks -the only good thing about this is that I get zone minutes from the work that it takes to scrape it off and you need a protein shake afterward.

Great information. I appreciate the explanation on the excess. I think I’ll continue to target 10-20 nitrates, and .1 po4.

 

[jda]

I would get your fish more food. The fish waste is where the available forms of nitrogen and phosphorous come from - ammonia for N and poly/metal phosphate and organically bound phosphorous for P. No3 and po4 are waste products and corals only really use no3 when they have no other choice. There is also carbon and some sugars in the fish waste that can grow things that your corals can catch - think bacteria. If your no3 and po4 rise, then export more, but keep the import high.

My guess is that this could help with growth as much as anything.

Edit: pellets on an autofeeder are a great way to get your fish food all day and also your corals waste all day. Mysis is also a good addition. Nori alone does not have enough HUFA or vitamins that most fish need.

 

[Max93]

I would get your fish more food. The fish waste is where the available forms of nitrogen and phosphorous come from - ammonia for N and poly/metal phosphate and organically bound phosphorous for P. No3 and po4 are waste products and corals only really use no3 when they have no other choice. There is also carbon and some sugars in the fish waste that can grow things that your corals can catch - think bacteria. If your no3 and po4 rise, then export more, but keep the import high.

My guess is that this could help with growth as much as anything.

Edit: pellets on an autofeeder are a great way to get your fish food all day and also your corals waste all day. Mysis is also a good addition. Nori alone does not have enough HUFA or vitamins that most fish need.

That makes sense.

I do feed half a sheet of nori a day, and frozen twice a day.

I have about 15 fish and of those 15 the big ones are: foxface, hippo, yellow tang, convict, and Kole tang.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

It is usually the opposite. Higher residual no3 and po4 reduce calcification. Period. In some corals, it might not be much, but in others, it can be huge. Given that no coral needs an excess of no3 to have nitrogen, nor more of a surplus of po4 to get phosphorous than say 1-3 ppb in the water, then the extra energy from the lights (sugar from the zoox) cannot be used well by organic tissue if calcification slowed down. This means that if the coral is not growing, then it is not up taking nitrogen and phosphorous, so the excess is just sitting there - if growing a little, then a little uptake. Nitrogen and Phosphorous are not needed in any decent amount for the corals just to function, mostly to build new organic tissue. You have to balance organic tissue growth and calcification if you want optimal growth.

Frags are always going to be slow. Don't judge anything on them.

All of this said, it might not be worth it to chase optimal growth. I can grow wall-to-wall colonies in 3 years from 1" frags with lower no3 and po4 and MH. This is not always fun. It means that I have to cut/break out colonies on the regular and it can really suck. Having fun and living with mediocre growth, as long as stuff is growing, might be a better plan for some. Also, have lower no3 and po4 means that coralline is a true pest - the stuff can cover my front glass in two weeks -the only good thing about this is that I get zone minutes from the work that it takes to scrape it off and you need a protein shake afterward.

Excellent info! Thanks for the help you give our community!

 

[Max93]

I would get your fish more food. The fish waste is where the available forms of nitrogen and phosphorous come from - ammonia for N and poly/metal phosphate and organically bound phosphorous for P. No3 and po4 are waste products and corals only really use no3 when they have no other choice. There is also carbon and some sugars in the fish waste that can grow things that your corals can catch - think bacteria. If your no3 and po4 rise, then export more, but keep the import high.

My guess is that this could help with growth as much as anything.

Edit: pellets on an autofeeder are a great way to get your fish food all day and also your corals waste all day. Mysis is also a good addition. Nori alone does not have enough HUFA or vitamins that most fish need.

Just a follow up -

With my increased nopox dose, my excess nutrients (measurable po4 and no3) have come down a bit, and I’ve increased the amount of food per feeding. I’m trying to think of nutrients this way, after reading your post and learning that this is all excess.

The PE on my Walt Disney has some noticeable increase in PE, but maybe I’m just too excited. My millepora (I have two) are struggling with PE still. But I found an old video on my phone with them having full PE, and my nutrients at that time according to my excel sheet where much lower than right now. No other changes.

 

[minus9]

I would get your fish more food. The fish waste is where the available forms of nitrogen and phosphorous come from - ammonia for N and poly/metal phosphate and organically bound phosphorous for P. No3 and po4 are waste products and corals only really use no3 when they have no other choice. There is also carbon and some sugars in the fish waste that can grow things that your corals can catch - think bacteria. If your no3 and po4 rise, then export more, but keep the import high.

My guess is that this could help with growth as much as anything.

Edit: pellets on an autofeeder are a great way to get your fish food all day and also your corals waste all day. Mysis is also a good addition. Nori alone does not have enough HUFA or vitamins that most fish need.

This 1000x! I don't think people quite understand how important it is to feed your fish frequently throughout the day, this constant dose of food for fish (and corals) will do wonders for the whole system. When you feed smaller meals throughout the day, all of the food is consumed, then the fish feed the corals through their waste. Quality food makes a difference.

 

[Pod_01]

The way I see this, light is like a gas pedal on your car you can press more but if there is no gas in the tank the car will stall.
So with higher par/light you don’t necessarily require higher level but you will need to make sure the supply is there and as a result you might need to dose or provide more nutrients (building blocks).
If insufficient nutrients are provided and the tank is empty your corals will stall.

 

[BranchingHammer]

Sorry, posted by mistake on my phone. But now that I’m here… I agree with @jda on the concept that nutrients are more bioavailable coming directly from fish waste rather than from reservoirs of processed waste products like nitrate and phosphate. As for higher nutrients for higher par, I’m not sure, but you want the coral tissue to be healthy enough to produce fluorescent proteins under higher light, which requires bio-available nitrogen, carbon, etc.

 

[jda]

Zoox can make carbon/sugar from the light.

As for the gas pedal analogy... kinda. Most modern reef tanks have full tanks of gas just with nitrogen in ammonia and phosphorous in organically bound or meta/poly form, or even a few ppb of po4. However, they let the residual built up which is similar to trying to drive in 12 inches of gas on the ground, which slows everything down.

 

[Max93]

Zoox can make carbon/sugar from the light.

As for the gas pedal analogy... kinda. Most modern reef tanks have full tanks of gas just with nitrogen in ammonia and phosphorous in organically bound or meta/poly form, or even a few ppb of po4. However, they let the residual built up which is similar to trying to drive in 12 inches of gas on the ground, which slows everything down.

Love the analogies. Makes sense, get stuck can’t move so quick and then eventually leads to spikes in alk due to reduced consumption.

Light is energy but the corals need food available, not the pile of trash sitting on the sidewalk. They’ll scrounge for it eventually, but it’s not good for them like a nice fresh meal consistently. Does that make sense as well? Lol

 

[jda]

Nutrients is too broad of a term, yet the term just get used on message boards for everything.

Energy/sugars/carbs are nutrients used for daily function and growth. Building blocks are also nutrients, but most only used to form/grow NEW organic tissue.

Carbon/carbs/sugars can be made by the zoox. Some corals can also catch some organisms and assimilate their energy - since we are in the SPS forum, think bacteria in slime coats since there is little evidence that polyp feeding of SPS is all that effective beyond styos and poci.

Nitrogen, Phosphorous are building blocks of life. Nothing needs these to go about their normal, everyday activities. They are not food. They are not energy. They are needed to build new organic tissue. Hosts, like true coral (stonies) can recycle their building blocks as things die to be used for other things in the symbiont - this process is not 100% efficient, but it is close. Think of N and P just being needed to grow. Even then, most forms of nitrogen and phosphorous that most reefers obsess about are not even all that usable but we have test kits for them, so they are on people's minds - nitrate appears to be used as a last source and most coral appear to want to use organically bound phosphorous and meta/polyphosphate over orthophosphate/po4.

Saying nutrients is a problem, IMO, but I have given up long ago. Some energy based nutrients can do more with surplus. Some nutrients do nothing with a surplus, like nitrogen and phosphorous. All nutrients are necessary at some level, but are also poison at higher levels.

In the end, I would focus on producing as much sugar as you can - wide spectrum and high amount of light. Keep a trace of nitrogen and phosphorous around for things to grow and do not let nitrate and phosphates get too high. It amazes me that people want to think that no3 and po4 are food and worry about dosing them all the while they have a AI prime or some undersized light with blue-only spectrum at too little PAR over too wide of an area.

 

[Max93]

Nutrients is too broad of a term, yet the term just get used on message boards for everything.

Energy/sugars/carbs are nutrients used for daily function and growth. Building blocks are also nutrients, but most only used to form/grow NEW organic tissue.

Carbon/carbs/sugars can be made by the zoox. Some corals can also catch some organisms and assimilate their energy - since we are in the SPS forum, think bacteria in slime coats since there is little evidence that polyp feeding of SPS is all that effective beyond styos and poci.

Nitrogen, Phosphorous are building blocks of life. Nothing needs these to go about their normal, everyday activities. They are not food. They are not energy. They are needed to build new organic tissue. Hosts, like true coral (stonies) can recycle their building blocks as things die to be used for other things in the symbiont - this process is not 100% efficient, but it is close. Think of N and P just being needed to grow. Even then, most forms of nitrogen and phosphorous that most reefers obsess about are not even all that usable but we have test kits for them, so they are on people's minds - nitrate appears to be used as a last source and most coral appear to want to use organically bound phosphorous and meta/polyphosphate over orthophosphate/po4.

Saying nutrients is a problem, IMO, but I have given up long ago. Some energy based nutrients can do more with surplus. Some nutrients do nothing with a surplus, like nitrogen and phosphorous. All nutrients are necessary at some level, but are also poison at higher levels.

In the end, I would focus on producing as much sugar as you can - wide spectrum and high amount of light. Keep a trace of nitrogen and phosphorous around for things to grow and do not let nitrate and phosphates get too high. It amazes me that people want to think that no3 and po4 are food and worry about dosing them all the while they have a AI prime or some undersized light with blue-only spectrum at too little PAR over too wide of an area.

Awesome details, thanks for taking the time to write this out. That’s why I switched to halides, I kept having light issues for years now I just turn on/off.

I thought of nitrates and phosphates as food this whole time (18 years in the hobby) until I made this post. It’s just the excess that we are measuring, which can slow down growth or like me, accidentally underfed for a while and think it’s another issue.