effects of copper power on older fish?

[jtf74]

I am about to dose all my fish in separate QT's after getting ich in my DT. The last fish I have yet to catch in my DT, as I was expecting is my royal gramma. I got it 10 years ago and it was already 2.5" or more then, so I'm guessing 11-12 years old. I am already moving my maroon clown pair/nems into another tank permanently since my flame angel fights with the big female and I plan to observe them since the don't show symptoms and medicate if needed as it will be much easier to catch them in the smaller DT. Was wondering if the gramma (no symptoms) would be better off in observation first with the clowns versus the copper treatment given his age? He could just live out life in the smaller system and never go back into the large DT.

 

[KrisReef]

Yes, but I would worry that the Maroon's would harass him in the smaller set up.

 

[jtf74]

Yes, but I would worry that the Maroon's would harass him in the smaller set up.

Gentle giant. They were raised together in the smaller system for several years and she could care less and the male is half the size of the gramma. Not worried about that at all.

 

[MnFish1]

I am about to dose all my fish in separate QT's after getting ich in my DT. The last fish I have yet to catch in my DT, as I was expecting is my royal gramma. I got it 10 years ago and it was already 2.5" or more then, so I'm guessing 11-12 years old. I am already moving my maroon clown pair/nems into another tank permanently since my flame angel fights with the big female and I plan to observe them since the don't show symptoms and medicate if needed as it will be much easier to catch them in the smaller DT. Was wondering if the gramma (no symptoms) would be better off in observation first with the clowns versus the copper treatment given his age? He could just live out life in the smaller system and never go back into the large DT.

It would seem that if you're going to treat 1 fish you need to treat them all - I don't think age makes a difference - I guess one could make the case that an older fish may have more immunity to Ich and copper is more risky, but one could also make the case that an older fish may not tolerate an ich infestation as well as a younger fish. If you're not going to treat all of the fish and then leave your tank fallow, you may be better off trying ich management. Putting a portion of the fish through treatment risks the possibility that it will just come back, and you will be in the same place you are now? Hope this helps - best wishes with the fish. PS - pictures would be nice - to deterimine if there is actually ich. it's unclear to me exactly how many fish you have and where they are going. If you're planning to keep the gramma seperate from the others - it becomes less of an issue - unless the gramma develops ich as well

 

[jtf74]

It would seem that if you're going to treat 1 fish you need to treat them all - I don't think age makes a difference - I guess one could make the case that an older fish may have more immunity to Ich and copper is more risky, but one could also make the case that an older fish may not tolerate an ich infestation as well as a younger fish. If you're not going to treat all of the fish and then leave your tank fallow, you may be better off trying ich management. Putting a portion of the fish through treatment risks the possibility that it will just come back, and you will be in the same place you are now? Hope this helps - best wishes with the fish. PS - pictures would be nice - to deterimine if there is actually ich. it's unclear to me exactly how many fish you have and where they are going. If you're planning to keep the gramma seperate from the others - it becomes less of an issue - unless the gramma develops ich as well

Sorry if my post wasn't clear. All my fish are 5+ years never had any issues. I have copperband, yellownose, bicolor and flame angels, maroon clown pair, gramma, and some kind of small damsel. I recently got a hippo. Noticed several small white dots like salt on both my butterflies and just two very clearly on the blue tang 3-4 days ago. I've had the tang a couple weeks. Dots appear on both body and fins. Fish are otherwise acting normal. No heavy breathing or appetite loss. The two dots even disappeared from the tang after a couple days. Only the butterflies and tangs have anything at the moment.


unfortunately my phone takes crap pics and they are already in QT. I am about 99% sure its ich, other than my longnose did have a ripped tail fin but that could have been the flame angel. Will try to get pic later.

So the clowns are going into a new setup permanently and the gramma could go with them as they get along. My main DT will go fallow. My 2nd DT has the two clowns which I've decided to hold treatment on since they don't have symptoms and won't go back into the main DT.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Copper power is chelated and safe to use and you can dose at 2.0-2.25 and add aeration
Ionic copper is more of concern

 

[jtf74]

Copper power is chelated and safe to use and you can dose at 2.0-2.25 and add aeration
Ionic copper is more of concern

Ok. I'll treat him then if I can ever catch him. It looks like there are fewer spots on my fish now so they may very well fight them off on their own but I hate the idea of trying to manage ich.

 

[KrisReef]

Ok. I'll treat him then if I can ever catch him. It looks like there are fewer spots on my fish now so they may very well fight them off on their own but I hate the idea of trying to manage ich.

I hate treating with copper. Keeping the tank (normally) healthy is often "good enough" ime to keep Ich spots from appearing. When/if I ignore the tank for awhile, skip feedings, lower routine cleanings then spots might return, but generally if i am paying attention the spots don't appear.

Still, it is great you have the energy and equipment to QT for your fishes benefits. GL!

 

[jtf74]

I hate treating with copper. Keeping the tank (normally) healthy is often "good enough" ime to keep Ich spots from appearing. When/if I ignore the tank for awhile, skip feedings, lower routine cleanings then spots might return, but generally if i am paying attention the spots don't appear.

Still, it is great you have the energy and equipment to QT for your fishes benefits. GL!

I bought some food grade stock tanks that weren't porous for QT. My system is too large for me to do this again if it gets out of control and I am not great at maintenance other than top off and occasional water change. I setup 3 separate 40 gallons to group them to prevent fighting and ordered a high precision hanna. I am more of a observation only QT guy so it pains me as well to use copper but I also don't want my fish to be uncomfortable, like a dog having fleas it seems.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I bought some food grade stock tanks that weren't porous for QT. My system is too large for me to do this again if it gets out of control and I am not great at maintenance other than top off and occasional water change. I setup 3 separate 40 gallons to group them to prevent fighting and ordered a high precision hanna. I am more of a observation only QT guy so it pains me as well to use copper but I also don't want my fish to be uncomfortable, like a dog having fleas it seems.

There is ionic copper and then there is amine-chelated copper like coppersafe. The latter is is much safer, and all of the horror stories you here about copper are either attributable to using ionic copper or starting the treatment too late (people hesitate because they are worried about copper, then they try it too late, the fish dies and they blame the copper!).

That said, treating coppersafe in freshly set up stock tanks can be a real nightmare. You need to ensure that the biological filtration is SOLID and ammonia is kept at bay. Also, stock tanks only allow for poor top-down viewing, and you can lose fish simply because you cannot really see what is going on with them.

Jay

 

[jtf74]

There is ionic copper and then there is amine-chelated copper like coppersafe. The latter is is much safer, and all of the horror stories you here about copper are either attributable to using ionic copper or starting the treatment too late (people hesitate because they are worried about copper, then they try it too late, the fish dies and they blame the copper!).

That said, treating coppersafe in freshly set up stock tanks can be a real nightmare. You need to ensure that the biological filtration is SOLID and ammonia is kept at bay. Also, stock tanks only allow for poor top-down viewing, and you can lose fish simply because you cannot really see what is going on with them.

Jay

I've used partial water from my display and moved all my live rock into the tubs for a few days so the fish can get comfortable (they aren't badly covered) and to help seed the tank with some bacteria. I will be putting rocks back in DT tomorrow and start treatment after. I will keep an eye on ammonia.

The ammonia is normal build up from fish waste or does the copper somehow elevate ammonia?

 

[KrisReef]

I've used partial water from my display and moved all my live rock into the tubs for a few days so the fish can get comfortable (they aren't badly covered) and to help seed the tank with some bacteria. I will be putting rocks back in DT tomorrow and start treatment after. I will keep an eye on ammonia.

The ammonia is normal build up from fish waste or does the copper somehow elevate ammonia?

The fish waste is a biological filtration issue. Copper doesn't elevate ammonia in fish waste.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've used partial water from my display and moved all my live rock into the tubs for a few days so the fish can get comfortable (they aren't badly covered) and to help seed the tank with some bacteria. I will be putting rocks back in DT tomorrow and start treatment after. I will keep an eye on ammonia.

The ammonia is normal build up from fish waste or does the copper somehow elevate ammonia?

Do you have any seeded filter media that doesn't have calcareous material in it? Tank water itself has little to no nitrifying bacteria in it and moving rocks into the tank prior to the treatment, then moving them out won't leave many bacteria either. The best thing would be a seeded filter sponge.

Ammonia is difficult to deal with when dosing amine-chelated copper products, as that gives a false reading on total ammonia tests:

A few years ago, I ran some tests for total ammonia, after adding the three common copper meds to samples, and this is the baseline ammonia readings for a full dose:

Coppersafe = 0.46 ppm
Copper Power = 0.52 ppm
Cupramine = 0.02 ppm

The idea is to subtract these values from the total ammonia reading for the tank, and that will give you the free ammonia level. However, if you have used ammonia neutralizing compounds, the chemistry gets really weird and all bets are off. If you use a test that only reads free ammonia (such as the ammonia badge) it should not pick up the ammonia bound to the copper.

Jay

 

[jtf74]

Do you have any seeded filter media that doesn't have calcareous material in it? Tank water itself has little to no nitrifying bacteria in it and moving rocks into the tank prior to the treatment, then moving them out won't leave many bacteria either. The best thing would be a seeded filter sponge.

Ammonia is difficult to deal with when dosing amine-chelated copper products, as that gives a false reading on total ammonia tests:

A few years ago, I ran some tests for total ammonia, after adding the three common copper meds to samples, and this is the baseline ammonia readings for a full dose:

Coppersafe = 0.46 ppm
Copper Power = 0.52 ppm
Cupramine = 0.02 ppm

The idea is to subtract these values from the total ammonia reading for the tank, and that will give you the free ammonia level. However, if you have used ammonia neutralizing compounds, the chemistry gets really weird and all bets are off. If you use a test that only reads free ammonia (such as the ammonia badge) it should not pick up the ammonia bound to the copper.

Jay

Thanks . I can use my bioball bag from my DT drip filter and replace it. How soon to test for copper after dosing?

 

[jtf74]

Also wondering if the fish are ok to stay in during the whole fallow period or if they should be moved to a copper free setup for the remaining time after the 30 day treatment, or if they are ok to stay in the whole time and maybe just do water changes?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks . I can use my bioball bag from my DT drip filter and replace it. How soon to test for copper after dosing?

I generally dose copper at about 50%, let it circulate for a couple of hours, then test and dose the remainder based on the results of the test.
Jay

 

[jtf74]

I generally dose copper at about 50%, let it circulate for a couple of hours, then test and dose the remainder based on the results of the test.
Jay

Great. Thanks. I very much appreciate what you do to help people on this site.

 

[jtf74]

I generally dose copper at about 50%, let it circulate for a couple of hours, then test and dose the remainder based on the results of the test.
Jay

almost half of my fish have either stopped eating or losing appetite after about 3 days Copper Power for ich. With hanna checker Copper was @ 2.5 in one tank and 2.29 in the other. All fish are 5+ years and well fed. Ammonia is ok. My copperband which is always the most hungry turned down mysis but still eating a little fresh seafood. My bicolor hasn't eaten much and my gramma nothing. Only the butterflies had ich which was almost gone after I caught them and transferred to QT and today I don't see anything. Wondering if I should abort and get them out, reduce copper a bit, or try and get to 14 days then to sterile tank?

@vetteguy53081​

@Jay Hemdal

 

[vetteguy53081]

almost half of my fish have either stopped eating or losing appetite after about 3 days Copper Power for ich. With hanna checker Copper was @ 2.5 in one tank and 2.29 in the other. All fish are 5+ years and well fed. Ammonia is ok. My copperband which is always the most hungry turned down mysis but still eating a little fresh seafood. My bicolor hasn't eaten much and my gramma nothing. Only the butterflies had ich which was almost gone after I caught them and transferred to QT and today I don't see anything. Wondering if I should abort and get them out, reduce copper a bit, or try and get to 14 days then to sterile tank?

@vetteguy53081​

@Jay Hemdal

How are you measuring and testing the level?
What you are doing is in essence ramping the copper which is Not recommended as it allows a given disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease. Add partial doses and get to the full treatment level as soon as possible. Get to treatment level within 24 hours going with coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off

 

[jtf74]

How are you measuring and testing the level?
What you are doing is in essence ramping the copper which is Not recommended as it allows a given disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease. Add partial doses and get to the full treatment level as soon as possible. Get to treatment level within 24 hours going with coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off

With a hanna high precision. I dosed 3 times in a 12 hour period to get to 2.5. They were eating well for 2 days after. I have aeration and an ammonia badge.