effects of copper power on older fish?

[vetteguy53081]

With a hanna high precision. I dosed 3 times in a 12 hour period to get to 2.5. They were eating well for 2 days after. I have aeration and an ammonia badge.

Use reliable ammonia test kit in lieu of badge to assure good water quality. I dont trust badges after 2 weeks as they are also for freshwater and question accuracy when in copper solution

 

[jtf74]

Use reliable ammonia test kit in lieu of badge to assure good water quality. I dont trust badges after 2 weeks as they are also for freshwater and question accuracy when in copper solution

Sure. My CBB just ate a lot of calamari so maybe I can continue. I'm going to drop it down tomorrow to a little above 2 and see if that helps. If another few days pass I think I'll have to try something else with the gramma.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

almost half of my fish have either stopped eating or losing appetite after about 3 days Copper Power for ich. With hanna checker Copper was @ 2.5 in one tank and 2.29 in the other. All fish are 5+ years and well fed. Ammonia is ok. My copperband which is always the most hungry turned down mysis but still eating a little fresh seafood. My bicolor hasn't eaten much and my gramma nothing. Only the butterflies had ich which was almost gone after I caught them and transferred to QT and today I don't see anything. Wondering if I should abort and get them out, reduce copper a bit, or try and get to 14 days then to sterile tank?

@vetteguy53081​

@Jay Hemdal

Well, the copper power won't cause that. Do you see any rapid breathing? You say the ammonia is o.k., I don't trust the badges, can you test with an alternate method?
Did you use any additives in the water? Ammonia removers, artificial slime coats?

Jay

 

[jtf74]

Well, the copper power won't cause that. Do you see any rapid breathing? You say the ammonia is o.k., I don't trust the badges, can you test with an alternate method?
Did you use any additives in the water? Ammonia removers, artificial slime coats?

Jay

I don't see rapid breathing. The gramma may just be stressed from being removed. I've not added anything. The copperband is eating fresh scallops but not like him to turn down mysis. Would ammonia get out of hand after only a week with 3 fish in a 40 gallon? I have good flow and extra aeration going. The only other test I have for ammonia is API which also doesn't register any ammonia. Tomorrow when I get more copper reagent I'll do a water change and see if that helps any.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I don't see rapid breathing. The gramma may just be stressed from being removed. I've not added anything. The copperband is eating fresh scallops but not like him to turn down mysis. Would ammonia get out of hand after only a week with 3 fish in a 40 gallon? I have good flow and extra aeration going. The only other test I have for ammonia is API which also doesn't register any ammonia. Tomorrow when I get more copper reagent I'll do a water change and see if that helps any.

Ammonia can get out of hand in 24 hours in a small tank if there is not sufficient biofiltration. That said, the API test, although hard to read, would be showing something if the ammonia was really off, so I think we can rule that out.

Just be aware that from decades of using ionic copper and seeing copper sensitivities, people are in a rush to blame amine-based copper for any issues. They see a problem and pull the copper, then the fish dies from something else and the copper gets the blame. Or, the copper was overdosed, or was mixed with Prime or other reducing agents (that's why I asked what tank additives you might have used).

Jay

 

[jtf74]

Ammonia can get out of hand in 24 hours in a small tank if there is not sufficient biofiltration. That said, the API test, although hard to read, would be showing something if the ammonia was really off, so I think we can rule that out.

Just be aware that from decades of using ionic copper and seeing copper sensitivities, people are in a rush to blame amine-based copper for any issues. They see a problem and pull the copper, then the fish dies from something else and the copper gets the blame. Or, the copper was overdosed, or was mixed with Prime or other reducing agents (that's why I asked what tank additives you might have used).

Jay

I read that copper did suppress appetite though. How long can a fish reasonably go without eating? They all seems perfectly normal otherwise and none of them have ever been shy about eating. Maybe its just the change in environment from the display. My maroon didn't eat for 12 days after I moved her into the display from another tank. I'll keep treating and lower down from 2.5 to 2-2.25 range I suppose and go ahead and do a pre-dosed water change.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I read that copper did suppress appetite though. How long can a fish reasonably go without eating? They all seems perfectly normal otherwise and none of them have ever been shy about eating. Maybe its just the change in environment from the display. My maroon didn't eat for 12 days after I moved her into the display from another tank. I'll keep treating and lower down from 2.5 to 2-2.25 range I suppose and go ahead and do a pre-dosed water change.

I've dosed thousands of fish with amine-based copper and have never noticed full anorexia as a symptom. Maybe the fish were suppressed by a small percent, but then, how can you tell if a fish is off feed by, say 10%?

Ionic copper DOES cause fish to go off feed, usually when first dosed.

How long a fish can go without eating depends on its size and how long it might have been food deprived before you got it (fish are often not fed during the supply chains). I immediately worry ANY time I have a fish that was eating, suddenly stops. I would worry if a clownfish goes perhaps a week without eating, but with yours it won't actually die from starvation for perhaps a month, give or take.

It is pretty common for older, established fish to simply stop eating after they are moved. I try not to move older fish for that reason. Maybe they get too "set in their ways" or perhaps they were able to compensate for some chronic issue and then the move put them over the edge?

Jay

 

[jtf74]

I've dosed thousands of fish with amine-based copper and have never noticed full anorexia as a symptom. Maybe the fish were suppressed by a small percent, but then, how can you tell if a fish is off feed by, say 10%?

Ionic copper DOES cause fish to go off feed, usually when first dosed.

How long a fish can go without eating depends on its size and how long it might have been food deprived before you got it (fish are often not fed during the supply chains). I immediately worry ANY time I have a fish that was eating, suddenly stops. I would worry if a clownfish goes perhaps a week without eating, but with yours it won't actually die from starvation for perhaps a month, give or take.

It is pretty common for older, established fish to simply stop eating after they are moved. I try not to move older fish for that reason. Maybe they get too "set in their ways" or perhaps they were able to compensate for some chronic issue and then the move put them over the edge?

Jay

Well today was day 11 and my bicolor angel that had been with me about 7 years died. I don't think it ate anything and I fear the gramma is next since it hasn't either. I'm moving it out to observation in with my clowns in a stable tank since none have shown signs of ich and will just keep it separate from my DT.

Butterflies appear to be doing fine still. My flame and blue tang stay in the pipes so not sure if they are still eating but its only been a few days since I know they both ate. I did a 25% water change with pre-dosed water but registered no ammonia or nitrite and copper was at 2.4 with hanna. Hoping the rest hang in there.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well today was day 11 and my bicolor angel that had been with me about 7 years died. I don't think it ate anything and I fear the gramma is next since it hasn't either. I'm moving it out to observation in with my clowns in a stable tank since none have shown signs of ich and will just keep it separate from my DT.

Butterflies appear to be doing fine still. My flame and blue tang stay in the pipes so not sure if they are still eating but its only been a few days since I know they both ate. I did a 25% water change with pre-dosed water but registered no ammonia or nitrite and copper was at 2.4 with hanna. Hoping the rest hang in there.

I still think there is something going on in the tub - can you post a picture of the set up? Does your LFS store have an ammonia test other than API or a badge?

Jay

 

[jtf74]

I still think there is something going on in the tub - can you post a picture of the set up? Does your LFS store have an ammonia test other than API or a badge?

Jay

I am going to go get another test now. Its just a tub with a heater, a couple power heads and a small air stone on a little pump. I put a filter pad from the display in there and the live rocks were in there for 4 days prior to treatment. My tang is darker blue than normal and getting thinner.

 

[jtf74]

I still think there is something going on in the tub - can you post a picture of the set up? Does your LFS store have an ammonia test other than API or a badge?

Jay

So I think you were right. I measured right at the low end of the danger zone somewhere between 1 and 3 on the new test strip. Changed out almost all the water and got it down to safe levels. I bought some seachem stability to add some more bacteria and wondering if I can also use amquel ? Otherwise, I'm wondering how I can keep it down now without going through a bucket of salt doing water changes constantly as I might as well just go to TTM if I'm going to do that. THanks

 

[jtf74]

I still think there is something going on in the tub - can you post a picture of the set up? Does your LFS store have an ammonia test other than API or a badge?

Jay

Also. if I wash it thoroughly and dry after it is there any reason I couldn't use my skimmer on the QT tank since I don't need it on my fallow DT right now?

 

[jtf74]

Sorry I am not sure why i can't edit previous posts now. Anyhow, the nitrites were also high even after the 75% or more water change. I've decided to pull all of my fish out and into my smaller tank that is stable. I'm going to let the QT cycle and try again later with the copper considering the amount of time I have left waiting on my fallow DT . There's no sign of ich but just hoping it not too late for them to recover from the ammonia and nitrates. I had a 55 gallon established for QT for years and then wasn't going to get more fish so I broke it down then I got another fish. Lesson learned.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I think you were right. I measured right at the low end of the danger zone somewhere between 1 and 3 on the new test strip. Changed out almost all the water and got it down to safe levels. I bought some seachem stability to add some more bacteria and wondering if I can also use amquel ? Otherwise, I'm wondering how I can keep it down now without going through a bucket of salt doing water changes constantly as I might as well just go to TTM if I'm going to do that. THanks

Amquel works pretty well at neutralizing ammonia.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Also. if I wash it thoroughly and dry after it is there any reason I couldn't use my skimmer on the QT tank since I don't need it on my fallow DT right now?

Yes, you can use a skimmer on a tank with copper in it, just rinse it well afterwards. I don't think it is going to help with the water quality all that much though.

Jay

 

[jtf74]

Yes, you can use a skimmer on a tank with copper in it, just rinse it well afterwards. I don't think it is going to help with the water quality all that much though.

Thanks for your help. They are all looking better. Eating better and less lethargic today especially the tang. The gramma hasn't eaten yet but I am hopeful. They look a little blemished as I guess ammonia burns so hopefully that will heal up in stable water and no long term damage has been done.

 

[jtf74]

Yes, you can use a skimmer on a tank with copper in it, just rinse it well afterwards. I don't think it is going to help with the water quality all that much though.

Jay

Jay:

Once my QT has cycled can I put the fish back in with the copper still at 2.5 or should I reduce it by maybe half first? Thanks

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay:

Once my QT has cycled can I put the fish back in with the copper still at 2.5 or should I reduce it by maybe half first? Thanks

Dealers and public aquariums will frequently move fish right into 100% chelated coppersafe or copper power. Home aquarists are often given the advice to “ramp up copper slowly”. That is old advice, only correct with ionic copper products.
That said, I recently did some additional testing and have noted that a full dose of coppersafe is 2.25 ppm. 2.5 should be used in stubborn active cases, but for general quarantine, 2.25 is a better target dose. Copper power is similar.
Jay

 

[jtf74]

Dealers and public aquariums will frequently move fish right into 100% chelated coppersafe or copper power. Home aquarists are often given the advice to “ramp up copper slowly”. That is old advice, only correct with ionic copper products.
That said, I recently did some additional testing and have noted that a full dose of coppersafe is 2.25 ppm. 2.5 should be used in stubborn active cases, but for general quarantine, 2.25 is a better target dose. Copper power is similar.
Jay

Ok. Thanks. I'll add a little fresh mix and drop it down a bit.