Help me understand how a refugium outcompetes other algae

[John Biddle]

The water is the same in the Display Tank, the Refugium and the Algae Turf Scrubber. The main reason the Refugium and the Turf Scrubber "outcompete" the algae in the DT is that the lights are more powerful and more aligned to the algae's needs. It will grow faster there than in the DT. Diminishing the whites in the DT might help this happen even faster but isn't necessary. Algae eating fish and cleanup crew also keep the algae down in the DT and increase the difference between the environments so algae grows where you want it and not where you don't.

 

[Katrina71]

 

[dzolot]

Ok, there’s a big piece missing from this discussion: algae eaters. In the display, you have a bunch of critters eating algae. In the refugium these algae eaters are absent. Therefore the algae in the display is being eaten while also competing for nutrients with the refugium, which typically runs in the reverse daylight cycle. It’s the algae eaters that tip the scale.

Exactly what i was thinking!

 

[darrick001]

Out competing may not be the best expression to help people understand this issue.
When you grow coral or algae it grows better when it has the ideal location, flow and nutrients for its needs. In a refugium you are attempting to provide the algae it's ideal growing environment. You provide powerful lighting and give it greater flow so it has better access to nutrients. By giving it this environment it grows much faster. By consuming these nutrients it limits the amount available to algae in the display. So in essence out competing could be called nutrient limiting.

One thing to understand is that a refugium is a tuneable filter. If nutrients are to low you just reduce the number of hours the lights are on. If they are to high increase the hours or the intensity. Also the amount of algae in the system plays a big roll. To keep mine tuneable I keep the amount of algae within a certain range and trim it more often to keep it consistent

For those that mentioned having trouble keeping algae it could be that you have plenty of nutrients and not enough of the right minerals for that type of algae. I had this very problem when I removed my skimmer 7ish years ago. At first the refugium worked great but within a few months the hair algae grew over everything and the algae In My refugium barely grew. An icp test that showed some minerals were completely depleted. When the minerals were corrected it switched. All the hair algae died in the display and the refugium grew like crazy. This happened over about 6 months. Nothing good in reefing happens fast.

One tiny detail that shouldn't be over looked is the benefits that those tiny little pods give your entire system. From cleaning up uneaten food , waste, algae to feeding your coral and fish. They are the biggest advantage in the tiniest package.

 

[rtparty]

A fuge or ATS is simply a tool to help with water quality. Neither one can outcompete and keep algae out of the display. That’s like saying I vacuum my master bedroom to keep my living room clean. Or I grow weeds in my backyard to keep them out of the front yard see how insane that sounds?

Algae is a byproduct from a lack of herbivores. It’s that simple.

Understand the tools of the trade and how to use them to make the whole package come together and work.

 

[Reeferbadness]

i'm a bit torn about refugiums. I have 2 mixed reef tanks (180 g and 200g) each with a fuge and 5 and 3 years old. When i first started the fuges, i let the chaeto go wild and grow to fill the space. I then noticed that my Nitrates bottomed out (Phos was manageable at around .02 - .06). Then i started dosing NeoNitrate to get those up and realized how crazy that was - why dose for something that i can easily remidy by taking out 75% of the chaeto which is depleting it so fast. I still battle turf algae in both tanks and still wonder if either refugium is doing all that much other than basic nutrient export. My nitrates are still pretty low. Oh well.

 

[marinesnow]

An elephant will eat a bale of hay faster than a rabbit...

If you're replacing N and P, your refugium needs trimming back... alternatively just let part of it die off to replace the N and P that's lost.

Also, invest in a good cleanup crew and they'll make up for any difference.

 

[VintageReefer]

That’s like saying I vacuum my master bedroom to keep my living room clean.

If everyone had to walk through the bedroom to get to the living room, then keeping the bedroom constantly vacuumed would contribute to the living room being clean.

Due to floor plans this isn’t common, however if you reverse it, plenty of people consider it perfectly normal to keep their house and living room floor vacuumed and clean, to keep the bedroom clean.

People take their shoes off when they come in the house, stopping most of the dirt from passing a point - socks, rollers, mech filtration.

Then the rest of the house is vacuumed regularly to keep the floors clean - refugium / scrubber

By the time people (water) makes it to the bedroom (display), the majority of the dirt (water nutrients/pollutants) have been removed.

what will get its floor dirty faster - the front door mat, the living room, or the bedroom

 

[ScubaSkeets]

Not sure if this a fair comparison or not but here is a section of my back yard. Same rain, same sun, same soil, but surely something is allowing preference for the grass to grow where it is but not where it isn't. And the last time I checked there weren't hundreds of grass eaters keeping that area clear of grass.

 

[darrick001]

I understand your reasoning but weeds in the backyard do not share nutrients with those in the front yard and the dirt from your bedroom does not flow freely from one room to another. Our refugiums are in a separate room but they remove dirt (nutrients) from all rooms evenly. In water everything wants to be equal. When you remove dirt (nutrients) from the bedroom (refugium) the dirt (nutrients) readily moves from the living room (display) to the bedroom (refugium). So by cleaning the bedroom water the living room water can indeed be cleaned.

 

[rtparty]

The issue is thinking that you can starve algae in one place but not another when the entire system is connected. If you are starving algae enough to keep it at bay, you are starving the entire system. This is where we can get into organic and inorganic nutrients as well.

However, this topic has been discussed at length a ridiculous amount of times. There are thousands and thousands of posts with both sides bantering back and forth.

I run an ATS. I have on multiple tanks. I’ve also run many many tanks without one. We’ve all seen thousands of tanks not run them and not have algae issues all over. Loads of tanks run no fuge, no ATS, no algae reactor of any kind and still don’t have large algae problems. Why? Because of the herbivores.

 

[darrick001]

i'm a bit torn about refugiums. I have 2 mixed reef tanks (180 g and 200g) each with a fuge and 5 and 3 years old. When i first started the fuges, i let the chaeto go wild and grow to fill the space. I then noticed that my Nitrates bottomed out (Phos was manageable at around .02 - .06). Then i started dosing NeoNitrate to get those up and realized how crazy that was - why dose for something that i can easily remidy by taking out 75% of the chaeto which is depleting it so fast. I still battle turf algae in both tanks and still wonder if either refugium is doing all that much other than basic nutrient export. My nitrates are still pretty low. Oh well.

That is one of the best aspects of a refugium it's completely adjustable. Flow, light intensity, the amount of algae kept and lighting time are all adjustable. It can be setup to assist other filtration or replace it.

 

[VintageReefer]

Loads of tanks run no fuge, no ATS, no algae reactor of any kind and still don’t have large algae problems. Why? Because of the herbivores.

It can be that simple. It can also be more complex than that. There are many factors that can be in play.

To counter, plenty of tanks have algae problems and no amount of herbivores get it under control and bring it down to a near zero level

 

[darrick001]

I don't want to take this off topic. We are trying to help the grim reefer understand what is ment by a refugium out competing the display algae. I think we have accomplished that. There are many ways to successfully setup a reef tank. Most work given enough time. There is no one thing that fixes every algae problem. If there was we would all be doing it the same way. We all have different knowledge and experience. We set our systems up according to the knowledge we have accumulated up to that point. Sometimes things are not the way we thought they were. Even after 25+ years in reefing I learn new things every day. Keeping an open mind to new ways of thinking is the best advice I can give. Reading or finding out 1 new piece of information can completely change the way we understand something. Keep learning keep sharing maybe one day we will find the one thing that always works.

 

[Garf]

At the end of the day, anyone can measure the approximate amount of nutrients removed by a refugium. Just need to dry out the algae that's being thrown away (harvested), probably between 5 and 10% of wet weight. That's how much "food" you have removed from the system. Most folk will find this amount minimal.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

And the last time I checked there weren't hundreds of grass eaters keeping that area clear of grass.

Grubs. Hundreds of them. lol

 

[Garf]

Not sure if this a fair comparison or not but here is a section of my back yard. Same rain, same sun, same soil, but surely something is allowing preference for the grass to grow where it is but not where it isn't. And the last time I checked there weren't hundreds of grass eaters keeping that area clear of grass.

Stick a few juicy hostas in there. You may be surprised what you've got in the garden that eats stuff. My wife's tank has lots of slugs that only appear in the dark, for example. No sign of them with the lights on.