Moved RO/DI to the Basement...need advice.
- Thread starter pdiehm
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With a capillary tube flow restrictor such as this. You would install it, monitor the waste and then trim the restrictor with a razor blade according to the included instructions. You will want to do this anyway once you install a booster pump as it will change your existing waste ratio.
Flow Restrictor - Standard - 180-GPD
They also have a video on how to trim a restrictor here:
Videos!
Or written instructions here starting on page 8:
http://spectrapure.com/manuals/memRepGuide.pdf
Flow Restrictor - Standard - 180-GPD
They also have a video on how to trim a restrictor here:
Videos!
Or written instructions here starting on page 8:
http://spectrapure.com/manuals/memRepGuide.pdf
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76 is pretty good. I have 68 before my booster pump but still boost it to 95-100 to improve the performance.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Isn't a (e.g.) stainless steel membrane housing recommended for pressures that high? I guess I don't know what's common, but I've seen plastic housings only rated for around 80 psi....guessing it's not cool to operate that at 100% of rated capacity.
If a unit meets the Uniform Plumbing Code it has a 125 psi working pressure and burst pressure about 3 times that high. Membranes themselves are rated at 150 psi working pressure. Another reason to buy a quality system that meets codes and ratings. Many of the systems you find on ebay and similar sites are imported clones that have not been rated or tested by ANSI/NSF and UPC so its buyer beware.
Manufacturers and vendors will tell you 80 psi for liability reasons.
Manufacturers and vendors will tell you 80 psi for liability reasons.
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pdiehm
Valuable Member
I'll contact bulk reef supply and see if their membranes can handle psi up that high.
You would think though, regardless of your psi, there's a cap at which the aquatec can hit. I'm also sure there's probably a way to dial it down as well. if I turn it on and it's 110, I will probably want to dial it back to 95 or so.
You would think though, regardless of your psi, there's a cap at which the aquatec can hit. I'm also sure there's probably a way to dial it down as well. if I turn it on and it's 110, I will probably want to dial it back to 95 or so.
BRS uses Dow Filmtec membranes so they are rated at 150 psi and their housings and fittings are quality so meet the UPC 125 psi working pressure. For liability reasons they will tell you 80 psi same as any other business owner.
The Aquatec 8800 takes whatever the existing pressure is and boosts from there. yes, there is an adjustment on the end of the pump so you can turn it down. I recommend using an inline pressure switch to control the pump in addition to the pump adjustment though and most vendors sell it as a package as shown here:
Booster Pump Kit for SpectraPure 60, 90, & 180gpd Manual-Flush Systems
The Aquatec 8800 takes whatever the existing pressure is and boosts from there. yes, there is an adjustment on the end of the pump so you can turn it down. I recommend using an inline pressure switch to control the pump in addition to the pump adjustment though and most vendors sell it as a package as shown here:
Booster Pump Kit for SpectraPure 60, 90, & 180gpd Manual-Flush Systems
Very good price! You did well.
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pdiehm
Valuable Member
it's how I do my shopping.
I check BRS and Premium Aquatics first. Then I check That Pet Place since it's about an hour or so away. Then I check Amazon and Ebay. I then compare the products I find to what I found on BRS. I know that I'll be getting the right piece from BRS, but if I can avoid paying $13 in shipping, I will every single time.
Looking forward. Someone posted on a forum, that this booster pump made their 150 gpd unit produce 200 gallons per day...didn't think that was possible as the unit can only produce what it's rated for. But I digress.
My plan is to get this booster...increase my pressure to 95. Question: My RODI unit has a gauge on it, will I be able to use that to determine the PSI? I'm leaning toward installing this right before the membrane, so I'm not sure how the installed pressure gauge will read that.
I love playing with new toys!
I check BRS and Premium Aquatics first. Then I check That Pet Place since it's about an hour or so away. Then I check Amazon and Ebay. I then compare the products I find to what I found on BRS. I know that I'll be getting the right piece from BRS, but if I can avoid paying $13 in shipping, I will every single time.
Looking forward. Someone posted on a forum, that this booster pump made their 150 gpd unit produce 200 gallons per day...didn't think that was possible as the unit can only produce what it's rated for. But I digress.
My plan is to get this booster...increase my pressure to 95. Question: My RODI unit has a gauge on it, will I be able to use that to determine the PSI? I'm leaning toward installing this right before the membrane, so I'm not sure how the installed pressure gauge will read that.
I love playing with new toys!
For RO/DI supplies I rely on Spectrapure, Buckeye Hydro and PurelyH2o. BRS is just average and their pricing and quality can be beat by several other vendors. I also find much of their advice questionable as I am a certified water treatment professional by trade with 40 years experience. But, for chemicals BRS is my go-to vendor and I have a closet full of things in up to 5 gal bucket sizes such as their two part magnesium mix and GFO to show for it.
When you boost the pressure to a RO membrane not only does its GPD go up but its rejection rate improves also. Russ at Buckeye Hydro has put together a simple calculator that you can plug numbers into and come up with what if scenarios, I use it a lot. Reverse Osmosis Drinking Water System | RODI Systems | Home Water Filtration System - Buckeye Hydro . It only goes up to a 100 GPD membrane but you can use the 75 GPD and double the final result and be very close. It demonstrates that pressure and temperature both affect GPD of a membrane.
If you want to be extremely accurate you can use this calculation sheet here:
http://spectrapure.com/manuals/CALC-FORMULA.pdf
With my single 75 GPD membrane, well its actually Spectrapure's hand tested version they call the Spectra Select 90 GPD, when I push it to 100 psi with the booster I get 125-130 GPD at at a better removal efficiency or rejection rate than my old dual membrane system so I sold the two membrane system and went with the single membrane low waste UHE system. The savings in DI replacements with the better rejection rate is substantial.
Your pressure gauge is reading the pressure after the sediment filter and carbon block so is in the correct place to monitor the boosters output.
When you boost the pressure to a RO membrane not only does its GPD go up but its rejection rate improves also. Russ at Buckeye Hydro has put together a simple calculator that you can plug numbers into and come up with what if scenarios, I use it a lot. Reverse Osmosis Drinking Water System | RODI Systems | Home Water Filtration System - Buckeye Hydro . It only goes up to a 100 GPD membrane but you can use the 75 GPD and double the final result and be very close. It demonstrates that pressure and temperature both affect GPD of a membrane.
If you want to be extremely accurate you can use this calculation sheet here:
http://spectrapure.com/manuals/CALC-FORMULA.pdf
With my single 75 GPD membrane, well its actually Spectrapure's hand tested version they call the Spectra Select 90 GPD, when I push it to 100 psi with the booster I get 125-130 GPD at at a better removal efficiency or rejection rate than my old dual membrane system so I sold the two membrane system and went with the single membrane low waste UHE system. The savings in DI replacements with the better rejection rate is substantial.
Your pressure gauge is reading the pressure after the sediment filter and carbon block so is in the correct place to monitor the boosters output.
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pdiehm
Valuable Member
That Buckeye calculator:
As things stand right now. For 75gpd yields 68 gpd (doubling because of my 2 75's) is 136 gpd at 76 psi and 48 degree water temps.
At 95 psi the gpd jumps to 86 or 172 gpd.
At 65 degree water, that number is 244 gpd at 95 psi (76 psi yields 192 gpd).
But i didn't think an RODI unit rated at say 150 gpd could exceed that? I was going to send the booster back, but i'm thinking it can't hurt, though I'll inevitably have to tweak it some to reduce the pressure back below 100.
As things stand right now. For 75gpd yields 68 gpd (doubling because of my 2 75's) is 136 gpd at 76 psi and 48 degree water temps.
At 95 psi the gpd jumps to 86 or 172 gpd.
At 65 degree water, that number is 244 gpd at 95 psi (76 psi yields 192 gpd).
But i didn't think an RODI unit rated at say 150 gpd could exceed that? I was going to send the booster back, but i'm thinking it can't hurt, though I'll inevitably have to tweak it some to reduce the pressure back below 100.
The GPD of a Dow Filmtec membrane is determined at 50 psi and 77 degrees F with a softened tap water TDS of 250. These numbers were picked as a standard to be able to compare one membrane against another and are in no way the perfect conditions under which to operate. When conditions change, either up or down in temperature, pressure or total dissolved solids content, or in any combination of them, the GPD and the membranes rejection rate change accordingly. Some of us may have warmer water, or higher or lower pressure or in the case of Phoenix and the Southwest in general, higher TDS and hardness than the average user, so our output and efficiency changes. This is why I cringe when I see vendors promoting a RO or RO/DI as a plug and play or one size fits all with a fixed flow restrictor. Everyone's conditions are different so to get the best out of a RO/DI you need to fine tune the waste ratio and filter micron sizes etc.
Boosting is always good, even if you have 60-80 psi since it improves not only the GPD but also the rejection rate meaning DI lasts longer and works better, saving you money and landfill space from the spent resin. Remember, for every 2% you can improve that waste ratio or removal efficiency, like in 96% up to 98% or even higher, you double the life expectancy of your DI resin. In my case between going with a hand tested and guaranteed 99% rejection rate RO membrane and a booster pump at 95-100 psi my DI resin life went from 150 measured gallons per cartridge to over 1000 gallons per cartridge so the cost of the better boosted RO/DI system was easily justified. I dropped from 150 GPD at 65 psi un boosted with the dual membrane system to 130 GPD at 95-100 psi with the boosted system but my RO only TDS went from 13-15 with the old system to 2-3 TDS with the new system thus the longer DI life. I don't even need 130 GPD but it is nice to make wate rthat quickly and at 99.4% efficiency.
Boosting is always good, even if you have 60-80 psi since it improves not only the GPD but also the rejection rate meaning DI lasts longer and works better, saving you money and landfill space from the spent resin. Remember, for every 2% you can improve that waste ratio or removal efficiency, like in 96% up to 98% or even higher, you double the life expectancy of your DI resin. In my case between going with a hand tested and guaranteed 99% rejection rate RO membrane and a booster pump at 95-100 psi my DI resin life went from 150 measured gallons per cartridge to over 1000 gallons per cartridge so the cost of the better boosted RO/DI system was easily justified. I dropped from 150 GPD at 65 psi un boosted with the dual membrane system to 130 GPD at 95-100 psi with the boosted system but my RO only TDS went from 13-15 with the old system to 2-3 TDS with the new system thus the longer DI life. I don't even need 130 GPD but it is nice to make wate rthat quickly and at 99.4% efficiency.
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pdiehm
Valuable Member
I will have to test it to see what my product:waste is I was under the impression the flow restrictor was already designed for 1:2 (product:waste). From what I've read that you've posted, 1:3 is more desirable.
That is correct. If membranes do not stay flushed, especially in dual membrane systems and with hard water and high TDS they will fail much sooner which in turn drives the cost of ownership up. A 2:1 ratio ONLY works with softened water and very low TDS and even then I would hesitate to recommend 2:1 for a dual membrane system where you are sending the brine from the first membrane into the second. Dual membrane systems are not water savers despite what some may try and convince you. If it really were that easy, every vendor on earth would be selling them and that is not the case. Membranes must be flushed to survive, and that is not flush kits but the continuous flush via the waste line. 4:1 is the industry standard waste ratio with 3:1 being OK if you have soft water and lower than normal TDS and more rarely 2:1 with extremely soft water and hardly any tap TDS on a single membrane system.
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pdiehm
Valuable Member
Pressure today is 54, and TDS going into 1st DI Canister is 18. Pressure definitely makes a big difference.
For my pump, if I understand right, I take the hose coming out of the last carbon block stage, run it into the "in" on the booster. Take the "out" on the booster, and run it where the last carbon tube was ran initially, heading into the first membrane (there's also a connection there which i am assuming is the pressure gauge).
Then take my pressure valve, attach it to the product water line after the 2nd DI Resin. Plug in and should be good to go.
Never knew my water pressure varied so much. Interesting.
For my pump, if I understand right, I take the hose coming out of the last carbon block stage, run it into the "in" on the booster. Take the "out" on the booster, and run it where the last carbon tube was ran initially, heading into the first membrane (there's also a connection there which i am assuming is the pressure gauge).
Then take my pressure valve, attach it to the product water line after the 2nd DI Resin. Plug in and should be good to go.
Never knew my water pressure varied so much. Interesting.
If you have a domestic well, they are normally controlled by a pressure switch which senses the pressure in a bladder or captive air tank. These tanks can be very small up to 180 gallons or larger so pressure fluctuates greatly depending on the usage in the home. Normal settings for a domestic well presure switch are 35-45 or so psi since most plumbing fixtures in the home don't require any more than that. I am surprised yours is as high as it is.
If you are using an inline type TDS meter I would not put much faith in it either, I have two of them and hardly ever turn them on since they never agree with either of my handhelds. The inlines are not temperature compensated so unless the air temperature and water temperature are exactly the same, which is about never, they are not accurate. Handheld TDS meters have a temperature probe built in that is sensing the water temperature when you stick it in the sample so are much more accurate. It does demonstrate you have fluctuating TDS though which leads to short DI life and poor RO/DI water quality.
Yes, you install the booster at least after the sediment filter but it is much easier to install it after the carbon block since all it requires is cutting and lengthening a piece of 1/4" tubing versus unscrewing threaded fittings and reorienting filters.
Here is a diagram, you have the autoshutoff valve in place of the solenoid valve is all.
http://spectrapure.com/huds/NEW-BPK-PS-DI-DWK.pdf
If you are using an inline type TDS meter I would not put much faith in it either, I have two of them and hardly ever turn them on since they never agree with either of my handhelds. The inlines are not temperature compensated so unless the air temperature and water temperature are exactly the same, which is about never, they are not accurate. Handheld TDS meters have a temperature probe built in that is sensing the water temperature when you stick it in the sample so are much more accurate. It does demonstrate you have fluctuating TDS though which leads to short DI life and poor RO/DI water quality.
Yes, you install the booster at least after the sediment filter but it is much easier to install it after the carbon block since all it requires is cutting and lengthening a piece of 1/4" tubing versus unscrewing threaded fittings and reorienting filters.
Here is a diagram, you have the autoshutoff valve in place of the solenoid valve is all.
http://spectrapure.com/huds/NEW-BPK-PS-DI-DWK.pdf
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