My Green Slimer went from this...... To this..... PICS--Acro Help Please

[JDK]

There are many trace elements removed from our water over time. Id move the green slimer lower in the tank n plan a few larger water changes. Sorry buddy. Been there.

........what, me worry?

Can not move the slimer lower without cutting it. It is epoxied down to the rock

 

[JDK]

it could most certainly be too much light with LED 4"-5" off the water surface, I have seen it many times, it's not something that will be fixed by doing water changes trust me

Maybe I will move the light up.....? Not sure. Corals were fine when the light was the same height. I feel bleaching from light being too close would have been noticable quicker. This has happened over a period of time.

 

[JDK]

I very much doubt his AI nano led is too much light. This is very likely not a light issue at all.

I believe your tank is too clean and you are being too aggressive with your media and additives. When your alk/cal/mg levels are in line Bleaching/ very slow growth usually should be a big STOP sign for things such as gfo/waste away. You need to especially stop using products like waste away, in a tank with very low organics this can cause major bleaching/die off(I know from personal experience)... Also do smaller and less frequent water changes for a while. At this point its not going to help and will probably make things worse if you aggressively change your water. "But I have cyano how can I have low nutrients?". Cyano is a symptom of phosphate/nitrate imbalance and can fix its own nitrogen(look up redfield ratios if you want to read more on this). A bit more nitrates in the correct ratio to phosphates would actually help - not hurt your cyano problem.

I have never had high nitrates which is interesting to me. They only were high right after the tank finished cycling. Since then they have never been above 5. I have decided to cut back on the water changes. Things were dirty and I was losing frags and zoas that is why I started the waste away. I only started using it again because I could not figure out anything else. I used waste away for 2 weeks when I had cyano. Then again this week when small cyano patches showed up again an the polyps retracted. They coincided perfectly and I believed they were related.

Do you have any fish? A fishless reef will not have enough nutrients(small amounts of ammonia) being released into the water to help feed coral zooxanthellae. If you have a very low fish load you can consider adding a few small fish and feeding them frequently. You could even consider slowly adding small amounts of ammonium nitrate to help get things moving in the right direction

I have 3 fish. Two clowns and a mandarin which I am in the process of giving away (mandarin). He is starving from a lack of food. He eats mysis but it is not enough he keeps getting skinnier. I feed every other day frozen mysis. I have tried feeding pellets but when I do feed them I get a brown scum on the glass everywhere like 12 hours immediately after using pellets.

Hope this helps... I have been in very very similar situation to yours in the past and it took me a long time to realize it was not a chemistry issue. It was not a light issue, it was not some foreign contaminant such as metal in the tank... I was making my tank way too clean with media/additives and totally decimating the corals ability to sustain its zooxanthellae.

Thank you. I am starting to believe it is a nutrient issue as well. However I did not run gfo for about a month and it just got worse and worse and here I am today. Just started running it again last week because I was out of ideas. Same with the "waste away" only started using it again this week. Things were getting worse when I was not using it. I plan on skipping some water changes and turning off the gfo . I do not know what else to do. We are told over and over to keep up with the WCs but it is not helping. Nothing is helpings. It just get worse. The only thing that baffles me is the LPS (acans) are thriving which always lead me away from the idea that it was a low nutrient issue. I always thought they would get worse from low nutrients before the SPS. This is not happening the acans are thriving.

 

[JDK]

Looking at his rocks I feel even more confident it is a low nutrient issue... his rocks look cleaner in the recent photo than they do in the 3 months ago photo. IMO 8 month old rock should not look like freshly added dry rock.

Yes now that you say it the rocks do look much cleaner. I just always believed that with sps the water could never be too clean. Maybe I am just too crazy about clean water and have over done it. I dont know what else to do.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

If its green ............it needs iron

 

[FaviaFreak]

Maybe I will move the light up.....? Not sure. Corals were fine when the light was the same height. I feel bleaching from light being too close would have been noticable quicker. This has happened over a period of time.

it's not actual bleaching that occurs but rather photoinhibition which in essence is too much light intensity for the coral to properly photosynthesize, it doesn't happen immediately it takes a little time for it to occur and rear it's ugly head, the end result is dull colored acros, I've seen it a 1000x...BTW don't rule out red bugs they will make your sticks look like that too. Also, I seriously doubt it's solely a low nutrient issue because your other frags look fine in coloration, they would be dulled out too if they have been in your tank at least a few weeks

 

[CoralFragZ]

I when through the same thing and solved the issue. I actually had three problems.

1. Dosing too much amino
2. Light was too much (high PAR)
3. Tank was too clean.

Solved it by:

1. Cutting the amino dosing in half.
2. Raising and dimming the lights
3. Added 12 Chromis and feed tank everyother day.

 

[JDK]

it's not actual bleaching that occurs but rather photoinhibition which in essence is too much light intensity for the coral to properly photosynthesize, it doesn't happen immediately it takes a little time for it to occur and rear it's ugly head, the end result is dull colored acros, I've seen it a 1000x...

I lowered the levels to 75%.... However the garf bonsai is as purple as can be. I mean bright purple not dull at all. It has always thrived in my tank and has grown the most. It is directtly under the light. Probably getting the most light in the tank other than the tips of the slimer (slimer is bigger tips are higher up).
How can I tell if the lowering of the lights is not the issue. Will the acros starting turning brown or more dull? I will keep the lights at 75% for the next few weeks and see what happens.

BTW don't rule out red bugs they will make your sticks look like that too. Also, I seriously doubt it's solely a low nutrient issue because your other frags look fine in coloration, they would be dulled out too if they have been in your tank at least a few weeks

I agree I have interceptor coming this week but I could only get the "tasty chewy" version of the medicine. The sudden loss of PE was like night and day. I woke up and there was no PE and it has not been back. This is what originally lead me to believe redbugs. The catch is this though.... The two acros most affected (no PE) are the Slimer and a blue Mille. Everyone keeps telling me that redbugs to not attack those species??????

I have examined them over and over with a magnifying glass but I just cant see any. My eyes are not the greatest but are they that small that I could miss them?

 

[JDK]

I when through the same thing and solved the issue. I actually had three problems.

1. Dosing too much amino
2. Light was too much (high PAR)
3. Tank was too clean.

I dont dose aminos
Light may be the issue but was at the same levels when the acro looked great. Bonsai looks amazing and is in a brighter spot.(I think)
I have 2 clowns I feed every other day.

 

[JDK]

I would not dose Iron unless you have a test kit for that.

Agree

I would also stop doing two part until your corals get bigger and just do regular water changes. I doubt its too much light.

Well I cant stop dosing two part. My tanks uses 1.1 dkh of alk per day. It also uses 10 parts of calcium a day. I have a dosing pump running for a reason I have calculated my amounts and hold them steady at DKH-9 Cal-450

 

[JDK]

Ok so I am now believing that one of 4 things are happening--

1. Low nutrients
2. Not enough light
2. Too much light
4. Red bugs (I cant see them anywhere I have looked and looked with a magnifying glass)

I feel like 1 and 2 are the most likely. After reading this thread on "that other forum" I dont think my lights are too high. Most people with success with AIs are tending to hold a max level for 6-8 hours. 6 being on the low end. I know people who run their MH for 6-9 hours and do not have pale corals. I may very well be wrong. I appreciate everyones helps and would love more input.

Here is an AI NANO LED par number list: (thanks to Adam T)- Notice that 6 inch depth is 2 inches below the water surface. Exactly like my light is set up.

Tank: Elos Mini
-20 gallons
-17x17x16
-17lb Live-Rock in display
-Mixed reef (SPS, LPS, Softies)

Flow: Vortech MP10ES

Lighting: AI Nano
-2 Cree XM-L Cool White
-4 Cree XP-E Blue
-4 Cree XP-E Royal Blue
-Mix between 40/70 degree optics

PAR Meter Used: Apogee QMSS

Here are the measurements:

NOTE: 2'' is out of water, 4'' is AT water level, 6'' is 2'' below water and on...


25% on all 3 colors, measured under the CENTER of fixture
-2'' below fixture: 1700
-4'' below fixture: 375
-6'' below fixture: 100

50% on all 3 colors, measured under the CENTER of fixture
-2'' below fixture: 2000+ (meter doesn't go higher)
-4'' below fixture: 700
-6'' below fixture: 300
-8'' below fixture: 200
-14'' below fixture: 77
-18'' below fixture: 50

50% on all 4 colors, measured at the SIDES of the tank
-4'' between: 25-32
-6'' between: 60-68
-8'' between: 69-83
-10'' between: 48-54
-14'' between: 40-47
-18'' between: 39-43

75% on all 3 colors, measured under the CENTER of fixture
-2'' below fixture: 2000+
-4'' below fixture: 850
-6'' below fixture: 530
-8'' below fixture: 437
-10'' below fixture: 359
-12'' below fixture: 181
-18'' below fixture: 69

75% on all 3 colors, measured at the SIDES of the tank
-6'' between: 87-90
-8'' between: 156-179
-18'' between: 51-58

100% on all 3 colors, measured under the center of the fixture
-2'' below fixture: 2000+
-4'' below fixture: 1339
-6'' below fixture: 622
-8'' below fixture: 469
-10'' below fixture: 301
-12" below fixture: 169
-18'' below fixture: 107

100% on all 3 colors, measured at the SIDES of the tank
-8'' between: 198-205
-10'' between: 141-163
-18'' between: 88-94

 

[Ninjapotamus]

I still think your tank is simply too sterile(nitrogenous waste being way way too limited). 2 clowns being fed every other day in combination with competition from various media filtration/ cyano/residual waste away bacteria is very likely leaving little to nothing for your corals zooxanthellae or even anything for basic algae to grow. Your garf bonsai is alive, but is showing very little growth for 3 months. Your acans living makes a little more sense as they likely have captured food during your feedings.

I do not think you need iron. You have basically zero green algae... nothing is consuming iron at all in your tank. This is definitely not a limiting factor for you. Again, I do not think light is causing your problem. With that said, lowering your light levels may help during the recovery process. Red bugs is another unlikely source of your problem. I would not dose interceptor unless you are sure you have redbugs!


My advice for the fastest recovery is to add more fish and feed them daily, not every other day. As someone else mentioned... cheap fish will work extremely well for this. Damsels/chromis etc. This will provide a much needed source of nitrogenous waste and in turn will fuel zooxanthellae growth in all of your corals as well as signifcant increases in skeletal growth. You will also establish much healthier algae that your clean up crew will consume. The overall health and of your system will increase dramatically.

good luck!

 

[Young Frankenstein]

I still think your tank is simply too sterile(nitrogenous waste being way way too limited). 2 clowns being fed every other day in combination with competition from various media filtration/ cyano/residual waste away bacteria is very likely leaving little to nothing for your corals zooxanthellae or even anything for basic algae to grow. Your garf bonsai is alive, but is showing very little growth for 3 months. Your acans living makes a little more sense as they likely have captured food during your feedings.

I do not think you need iron. You have basically zero green algae... nothing is consuming iron at all in your tank. This is definitely not a limiting factor for you. Again, I do not think light is causing your problem. With that said, lowering your light levels may help during the recovery process. Red bugs is another unlikely source of your problem. I would not dose interceptor unless you are sure you have redbugs!


My advice for the fastest recovery is to add more fish and feed them daily, not every other day. As someone else mentioned... cheap fish will work extremely well for this. Damsels/chromis etc. This will provide a much needed source of nitrogenous waste and in turn will fuel zooxanthellae growth in all of your corals as well as signifcant increases in skeletal growth. You will also establish much healthier algae that your clean up crew will consume. The overall health and of your system will increase dramatically.

good luck!

Greens would be the next easiest color to tweak. Most green coloration can be achieved through the addition of an Iron Concentrate (Kents is what I use, however Iron is Iron). You must be very careful with Iron because it is also an Algae accelerator; this is why it is so important for you to get your yellows colors first (your N and P will be lowered

Read more: Guide of SPS coral coloration (make them more vivid, bright)​

 

[Young Frankenstein]

All green needs iron trees, corals, vegetables, algae.
Please read this article and google it .........you will find many more

Guide of SPS coral coloration (make them more vivid, bright)

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=301966

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Iron: A Look At Organisms Other Than Macroalgae — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

 

[JDK]

I still think your tank is simply too sterile(nitrogenous waste being way way too limited). 2 clowns being fed every other day in combination with competition from various media filtration/ cyano/residual waste away bacteria is very likely leaving little to nothing for your corals zooxanthellae or even anything for basic algae to grow. Your garf bonsai is alive, but is showing very little growth for 3 months. Your acans living makes a little more sense as they likely have captured food during your feedings.

I agree. I am thinking the lack of nutrients may be the issue. I will add a fish or two. Was always worried that they would be crowded in my small tank and did not want to stress them out by being crammed in there. I fed with coral frenzy last night for the first time in a while. Gonna use it a few times this week and get some oyster feast as well. I believe I am capable of feeding and export a good amount of the excess (oversized skimmer and gfo).

I do not think you need iron. You have basically zero green algae... nothing is consuming iron at all in your tank. This is definitely not a limiting factor for you. Again, I do not think light is causing your problem. With that said, lowering your light levels may help during the recovery process. Red bugs is another unlikely source of your problem. I would not dose interceptor unless you are sure you have redbugs!

No algae though is by my doing. I started with all dry rock. No live rock was ever added. I do have some weird algae growing that you cant see in the pics I will post it. It came in on a frag from WWC and I have never seen algae like it before. It is almost like some type of macro algae? I also harvest chaeto regularly. It does not grow like crazy but it does grow. Wouldnt that mean nutrients in the water?

I agree with the no iron. There is very little polyp extension and that would not be related to iron. I also assume there is iron in my salt mix and some in the GFO. Why would a lack of iron cause my blue mille to retract its polyps? Does not make sense. I do not think I have red bugs. I have looked over and over again and I can not see them anywhere.

My advice for the fastest recovery is to add more fish and feed them daily, not every other day. As someone else mentioned... cheap fish will work extremely well for this. Damsels/chromis etc. This will provide a much needed source of nitrogenous waste and in turn will fuel zooxanthellae growth in all of your corals as well as signifcant increases in skeletal growth. You will also establish much healthier algae that your clean up crew will consume. The overall health and of your system will increase dramatically.

good luck!

I will give it a shot. I have tried everything not much to lose. I have always wanted a royal gamma. Thanks for all your help. I will post pics of the algae I was talking about above.

 

[JDK]

Young frankenstein-- I have read all those articles before. Does iron relate to polyp extension? I was losing color for months.... Then I lost polyp extension all at once in the matter of a day about a month ago. How could that be iron related?

 

[JDK]

You have basically zero green algae... nothing is consuming iron at all in your tank. This is definitely not a limiting factor for you. Again, I do not think light is causing your problem.

Ok forgot to mention I do have algae. I do have some red turf algae growing on my clams shell and up top on one of the frag plugs not pictured. I also have a small spot of what looks like green bubble algae growing on the bottom of the slimer that I just noticed today just one bubble. It is in the most shaded part on the side of the frag plug. Not touching the coral itself. There is brown slimey stuff on the back wall with the small patch of cyano that has bubbles on it. I also have some kind of weird algae that grows in between the polyps of my palys. It only grows in between the polyps. I believe it is "brown algae" of some kind-

PICS of weird macro like algae growing in between polyps of paly.

algae pics

I found these pics on that other forum that look very similar:

Brown from reefkeeping mag

another one

 

[Big E]

Some comments--

It sounds like a nutrient & high light issue............more the light.

Macro algae like what you have & bubble aglae can thrive in low nutrients because the hair algae is minimal.......the macro has nothing to compete with. Macro algaes can actually grow more once hair algae dies off.

On par..................they mean little when measuring LED' to some extent. The main reason is the narrow spectrum each LED diode has. Each diode is putting out 100% of a specturm that the coral can absorb. With metal halides or T5's they are what we call full spectrum or multiple spectrums, so the bulb is putting out blue, green, red, ect. Even though the par may be the same as a 250w bulb the coral only absorbs the spectrum it can use & reflects the rest of what the bulb gives out..........so a coral may only be taking in 50% of a 500par bulb. With the LED diode...........the coral is taking in 100% of what the diode puts out, so at the same par it's absorbing twice as much light..........that's why people burned their corals.

It does depend on what spectrum each coral absorbs............the slimer most likely is absorbing more of the light than say your tri color. The tri color is likely reflecting more of the two specturms your LEDs put out so it's fine whereas the slimer is hurting.

You did mention the slimer polyps are opening in the shaded area whereas they are closed under the full light, which again tells me it's a light issue.

As someone mentioned photo inhibition isn't the same as bleaching..........it happens more slowly. Think about it this way...........the coral gets damaged by the high light..............it puts all it's energy into trying to mend itself & the next day it get hammmerd again. It never has any energy left to grow, so it's just treading water..........over time it loses the battle & starts dying off.

 

[Big E]

Another thing you can try is to use different optics. Maybe spread the light more over the center of the tank so that corals aren't getting a direct hit of all the light. That may be a better option than just dimming or raising your lights for a long term solution.

On adding nutrinets------------You don't have to buy more fish............you can add a slurry of extra food into your sump & feed the fish more. Most phospate comes from fish food...............not the fish themselves. You don't want to overcrowd your tank, plus it's a lot easier to lower adding food nutrients than trying to net a fish out of a crowded nano if you go too far.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

Young frankenstein-- I have read all those articles before. Does iron relate to polyp extension? I was losing color for months.... Then I lost polyp extension all at once in the matter of a day about a month ago. How could that be iron related?

Just like everything else that’s talked about I am still a firm believer is a iron problem, I would at least try dosing minor amounts of iron and see if it helps. If you are trying to pinpoint the reason for the instant change you will have a hard time doing that because all said, you did not make any drastic change like changing light fixtures or changing your dosing habits.