Random musings on coral frags...The beginning of an open dialogue!

[uniquecorals]

Thanks for the responses........well said. I think it's important to note exactly how your grow out systems are similar or different from a dispaly tank. In reference to potassium, it should be plentiful for most reefers as the input of fish food and water changes should keep levels acceptable.

In the abscence of fish(or low fish load) and the huge amount of acros you're propagating I could see a possible drop. The question is, where is the potassium actually going? I'm not sure I'm convinced the corals are taking it up or if it's getting processed out by bacteria and then a skimmer.

What type of potassium in chemical form are they or you dosing?

It's interesting about the double levels having a positive effect. I'd be inclined to experiment with this in a seperate frag tank, but not a display and how it may affect other organisms and fish.

Alk-- It's interesing how things can come full circle. I remember Alk of 10+ common 10 years ago. There are even references to some of this--

Aquarium Chemistry: The Chemical and Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

I came across a few comments from Dana Riddle recently where years back he was talking about higher alk levels leading to better coloration and him being able to turn on and off colors with lowering and raising of alk with everything else consistent in propagating systems. I'm not sure he ever followed up on that.

I always ran my alk in that 8.5-9.5 range and was never alarmed or had isssue if it hit 10+.

Like the old saying.........."the more things change the more they stay the same". I have found myself always going back to the simplistic fundamentals that worked for many years.

Thanks for starting this thread...........it can prove to be a very interesting read. Can you provide more info about the make up of your prop systems? I'd like to hear more about how flow is used too. Most prop systems I see use the raceway/ shallow tubs focusing more on laminar flow.

Good information and ideas!

We use Brightwell dry potassium, FYI. We have found, at least anecdotally, that the coral coloration flat-out looks better when we maintain NSW concentrations or better of potassium. There is a noticeable color difference if you let these levels fall below NSW. In our closed systems with tons of coral, even with our regular water changes, the fluctuation is very real and is something we keep in check via regular water testing and additions of potassium in a stock solution. ReefGen's Justin Cedebal has done a bunch of experimentation on potassium uptake in corals, and has experimented with much higher concentrations than NSW, with great success. We have in our possesion some corals grown by Justin in much higher potassium levels, and they are dramatically different in color than the same coral grown in identical conditions, save the potassium level. Andecdotal? Per haps, but we are pretty convinced, at least in our daily practice, that potassium is valuable. We do test and dose as necessary to keep our level where desired. And our coral coloration definitely reflects the dosing.

Alkalinity is another one of those areas where I agree with you...I have personally maintained lower Alk levels with success in home systems. However, on a mass propagation scale, we have noticed a commensurate decline in both color and overall health in corals under low, fluctuating, or declining Alk levels. We shoot for 10 DKH and are quite happy with the results. I did speak with Dana at MACNA about this, and he still stands by his research on this topic. Interesitngly, he is researching chlorophyll elvels in corals and was taking extensive measurements of our corals chlorophyll levels at MACNA for an interesting study to be published by him soon.

Agree with you about change in the hobby, and the simple stuff generally working best!

As far as our prop systems- they are 30 foot long raceways, about 28" deep, and the corals are on eggcrate on top of a raised acrylic plate, so they are roughly 4-5 inches from the water surface. As far as flow is concerned, we incorporate super efficient "gyre" flow, designed by Jake Adams. It's probably the only aspect of our physical system that we keep sort of "classified", at his request. It's kind of like "Stealth" technology was...The research and principles are out there for everyone to see- the concept is absurdly simple, but the actual application physics, flow calculations, and hardware configuration behind our flow is going to remain under wraps for some time. It took a bunch of work with Jake's assistance to get the flow working correctly, and we believe it gives us some incredible benefits, in terms of oxygenation, growth, healing, etc...and that's stuff that we're not in any hurry to give away to the open market at this time, if you know what I mean! Suffice it to say, we have very, very strong, very efficient flow with minimal electrical consumption, and we are sold on the concept. Flow = Life is a good statement, IMO!

Again, thanks so much for contributing/commenting...It's great that we share our thoughts and techniques for everyone to benefit from!

Thanks again!

Scott

 

[uniquecorals]

Thanks for the responses........well said. I think it's important to note exactly how your grow out systems are similar or different from a dispaly tank. In reference to potassium, it should be plentiful for most reefers as the input of fish food and water changes should keep levels acceptable.

In the abscence of fish(or low fish load) and the huge amount of acros you're propagating I could see a possible drop. The question is, where is the potassium actually going? I'm not sure I'm convinced the corals are taking it up or if it's getting processed out by bacteria and then a skimmer.

What type of potassium in chemical form are they or you dosing?

It's interesting about the double levels having a positive effect. I'd be inclined to experiment with this in a seperate frag tank, but not a display and how it may affect other organisms and fish.

Alk-- It's interesing how things can come full circle. I remember Alk of 10+ common 10 years ago. There are even references to some of this--

Aquarium Chemistry: The Chemical and Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

I came across a few comments from Dana Riddle recently where years back he was talking about higher alk levels leading to better coloration and him being able to turn on and off colors with lowering and raising of alk with everything else consistent in propagating systems. I'm not sure he ever followed up on that.

I always ran my alk in that 8.5-9.5 range and was never alarmed or had isssue if it hit 10+.

Like the old saying.........."the more things change the more they stay the same". I have found myself always going back to the simplistic fundamentals that worked for many years.

Thanks for starting this thread...........it can prove to be a very interesting read. Can you provide more info about the make up of your prop systems? I'd like to hear more about how flow is used too. Most prop systems I see use the raceway/ shallow tubs focusing more on laminar flow.

Good information and ideas!

We use Brightwell dry potassium, FYI. We have found, at least anecdotally, that the coral coloration flat-out looks better when we maintain NSW concentrations or better of potassium. There is a noticeable color difference if you let these levels fall below NSW. In our closed systems with tons of coral, even with our regular water changes, the fluctuation is very real and is something we keep in check via regular water testing and additions of potassium in a stock solution. ReefGen's Justin Cedebal has done a bunch of experimentation on potassium uptake in corals, and has experimented with much higher concentrations than NSW, with great success. We have in our possesion some corals grown by Justin in much higher potassium levels, and they are dramatically different in color than the same coral grown in identical conditions, save the potassium level. Andecdotal? Per haps, but we are pretty convinced, at least in our daily practice, that potassium is valuable. We do test and dose as necessary to keep our level where desired. And our coral coloration definitely reflects the dosing.

Alkalinity is another one of those areas where I agree with you...I have personally maintained lower Alk levels with success in home systems. However, on a mass propagation scale, we have noticed a commensurate decline in both color and overall health in corals under low, fluctuating, or declining Alk levels. We shoot for 10 DKH and are quite happy with the results. I did speak with Dana at MACNA about this, and he still stands by his research on this topic. Interesitngly, he is researching chlorophyll elvels in corals and was taking extensive measurements of our corals chlorophyll levels at MACNA for an interesting study to be published by him soon.

Agree with you about change in the hobby, and the simple stuff generally working best!

As far as our prop systems- they are 30 foot long raceways, about 28" deep, and the corals are on eggcrate on top of a raised acrylic plate, so they are roughly 4-5 inches from the water surface. As far as flow is concerned, we incorporate super efficient "gyre" flow, designed by Jake Adams. It's probably the only aspect of our physical system that we keep sort of "classified", at his request. It's kind of like "Stealth" technology was...The research and principles are out there for everyone to see- the concept is absurdly simple, but the actual application physics, flow calculations, and hardware configuration behind our flow is going to remain under wraps for some time. It took a bunch of work with Jake's assistance to get the flow working correctly, and we believe it gives us some incredible benefits, in terms of oxygenation, growth, healing, etc...and that's stuff that we're not in any hurry to give away to the open market at this time, if you know what I mean! Suffice it to say, we have very, very strong, very efficient flow with minimal electrical consumption, and we are sold on the concept. Flow = Life is a good statement, IMO!

Again, thanks so much for contributing/commenting...It's great that we share our thoughts and techniques for everyone to benefit from!

Thanks again!

Scott

 

[VIPReef]

Not many coral vendors share their info like you do. Great write up! The info here should help quite a few people.

Frank

 

[Big E]

I have no problem with coming to conclusions with "anecdotal" evidence when you can turn on and off the resluts................I call that "experience". Pictures for your own review help a lot with this to keep bias down. I know I have learned a lot more examining pictures of my corals over time. Especially top down photos.

I"ve come to a lot of my own conclusions concerning vinegar dosing the same way and stand by it because I can repeat levels and control them.

The one thing that gets lost, is our society expects instant results now a days, and that's when anecdotal evidence doesn't hold water. I use at least a good 3-4 weeks to examine results of any changed variables.

It's funny about the gyre, as I had recently seen one of his simple setups and was thinking of doing one on a new prop tank I'm setting up. I"ve never beeen sold on the chotic flow that is so commony used. My other thought is that flow change should happen in longer durations 6-12 hours instead of the constant turning on & off of pumps so popular now a days.

 

[uniquecorals]

I have no problem with coming to conclusions with "anecdotal" evidence when you can turn on and off the resluts................I call that "experience". Pictures for your own review help a lot with this to keep bias down. I know I have learned a lot more examining pictures of my corals over time. Especially top down photos.

I"ve come to a lot of my own conclusions concerning vinegar dosing the same way and stand by it because I can repeat levels and control them.

The one thing that gets lost, is our society expects instant results now a days, and that's when anecdotal evidence doesn't hold water. I use at least a good 3-4 weeks to examine results of any changed variables.

It's funny about the gyre, as I had recently seen one of his simple setups and was thinking of doing one on a new prop tank I'm setting up. I"ve never beeen sold on the chotic flow that is so commony used. My other thought is that flow change should happen in longer durations 6-12 hours instead of the constant turning on & off of pumps so popular now a days.

LOL, all true...I still feel kind of bad about presenting an idea without hard scientific evidence to back it up, but I can only speak from our experience...And we are pretty convinced that potassium use has contributed significantly to the coloration of our corals. Totally agree with you about the "instant gratification" thing...I'll state it right here for the record, in a very succinct manner: If you can't keep a reef tank healthy and meet the other needs of your animals, dumping in potassium is not going to make your corals look better. Coral husbandry (or reefing husbandry in general) requires an understanding of some basic stuff, as well as an understanding of how the affects of additions, subtractions, and other changes to the environment contribute to changes in your system. There are just no shortcuts or "magic bullets" in reefing. If there were, we'd all have perfctly successful systems, there would be no need to harvest wild corals from the world's reefs, and we'd all be able to enjoy lots more days in the warm sunshine, instead of indoors with a test kit and siphon hose in our hands!

Regarding potassium, I believe that it's becoming a staple with a lot of coral propagators because the results are tangible. That being said, as we have discussed, there are many factors that contribute to the growth and production of healthy coral frags. Potassium is just one element (no pun intended) in that mix. Definitely worth experimentation with, but, as stated above- no "magic bullet."

Yeah, let's just say that gyre is, in my opinion, the best way to configure flow in a reef system.

Thanks,

Scott

 

[uniquecorals]

Not many coral vendors share their info like you do. Great write up! The info here should help quite a few people.

Frank

Thanks, Frank, we appreciate the support.

As I've stated many times, even though we are in a business, it's still a passion, and sharing and two-way dialogue is very important. We learn from each other, and it should always be a discussion instead of a lecture, IMO.

-Scott

 

[Big E]

Scott,

Are you doing any carbon dosing on your systems?

 

[Eienna]

I love watching my frags grow <3

Questionnn....I have Seachem Flourish Potassium for planted tanks. Would it be safe to use in my reef? I'd like to try using it. Also, what test do you use to measure the levels?

 

[ricwilli]

Regarding potassium, I believe that it's becoming a staple with a lot of coral propagators because the results are tangible. That being said, as we have discussed, there are many factors that contribute to the growth and production of healthy coral frags. Potassium is just one element (no pun intended) in that mix. Definitely worth experimentation with, but, as stated above- no "magic bullet."

Thanks,

Scott

What Potassium test kit do you use? I've read horrible stories about them not being to accurate. Hopefully thats not a secret. LOL.

Only kidding..... I enjoyed reading your write up. Thanks

 

[uniquecorals]

Scott,

Are you doing any carbon dosing on your systems?

Actually, we experimented with Vodka dosing, based on Joe Yaiullo's techniques, and it was netting some nice results, but we did stop doing this because we were getting some inconsistent results and had a few occasions where we were actually bleaching some corals. In the end, we determined that there was just "too much going on" in our SPS systems to utilize this method effectively or consistently. Water changes seem to work best!

-Scott

 

[uniquecorals]

I love watching my frags grow <3

Questionnn....I have Seachem Flourish Potassium for planted tanks. Would it be safe to use in my reef? I'd like to try using it. Also, what test do you use to measure the levels?

I have used this product in freshwater tanks for years and really like it. However, I would not use that product in a marine system, because I'm quite frankly not sure of a number of factors, ranging from what it is mixed with, to how it reacts at a high pH, and other possible question marks. We use the Brightwell dry potassium product with a good deal of accuracy. I'm not a chemist and really not qualified to comment on the relative effectiveness of the product; I can only tell you that I would rather use the dry product intended for marine use...it's what works for us!

-Scott

 

[uniquecorals]

What Potassium test kit do you use? I've read horrible stories about them not being to accurate. Hopefully thats not a secret. LOL.

Only kidding..... I enjoyed reading your write up. Thanks

I could tell you, but then...LOL

No, actually, we use a Salifert kit and it has worked for us. There is probably a more accurate, or possibly even more "appropriate" kit out there, but this one works for us, and the results that we are achieving based on the readings we are getting from this kit assure us that we are apparently doing something correctly!

That being said, and a bit off topic- we use the coloromiter test for phosphate and it's pretty amazing! Ever use one of those! A cool toy! Played with that the other day and was in reef-geek heaven!

-Scott

 

[Eienna]

I have used this product in freshwater tanks for years and really like it. However, I would not use that product in a marine system, because I'm quite frankly not sure of a number of factors, ranging from what it is mixed with, to how it reacts at a high pH, and other possible question marks. We use the Brightwell dry potassium product with a good deal of accuracy. I'm not a chemist and really not qualified to comment on the relative effectiveness of the product; I can only tell you that I would rather use the dry product intended for marine use...it's what works for us!

-Scott

Okey dokey

 

[Nano sapiens]

Very nice write up and I can personally attest to the excellent frag quality and quality shipping you folks provide. Well done!

I have seen more and more interest in Potassium recently and the improved coloration results at higher than NSW levels is quite interesting. I'd like to see what consequences, if any, happen long term (years) to a stony coral colony that has been subjected to continuous 2x NSW levels.

I was reading an article recently regarding very ancient coral reefs and evidence that suggested that alkalinity was up around 15-16 dKh. Corals may have a built in genetic memory of those ancient days and this may explain why substantially higher than NSW levels are usually not detrimental (within limits). I've run my tank at 10.5 - 11 dKh for months without any issues, but I have found better coloration at around 7.8 - 8.2 dKh. Each tank/facility is unique due to the differences in flow, lighting, etc. and finding out what works best is part of what makes this hobby/industry so interesting!

Ralph.

 

[dreefman]

great write up thanks

 

[uniquecorals]

Very nice write up and I can personally attest to the excellent frag quality and quality shipping you folks provide. Well done!

I have seen more and more interest in Potassium recently and the improved coloration results at higher than NSW levels is quite interesting. I'd like to see what consequences, if any, happen long term (years) to a stony coral colony that has been subjected to continuous 2x NSW levels.

I was reading an article recently regarding very ancient coral reefs and evidence that suggested that alkalinity was up around 15-16 dKh. Corals may have a built in genetic memory of those ancient days and this may explain why substantially higher than NSW levels are usually not detrimental (within limits). I've run my tank at 10.5 - 11 dKh for months without any issues, but I have found better coloration at around 7.8 - 8.2 dKh. Each tank/facility is unique due to the differences in flow, lighting, etc. and finding out what works best is part of what makes this hobby/industry so interesting!

Ralph.

Interesting find, Ralph! I think you hit it on the head with your statement about different systems getting different results based on their specific characteristics...All good stuff...That's why it's hard to just flat out tell others to keep the ph at____, or Calcium at______...

Thanks,

Scott

 

[uniquecorals]

great write up thanks

And thank YOU, for stopping by!

Scott